Hail Caesar - New Edition Coming

Vitor Soares

10/27/22, 11:12 AM

I have played it a lot, and completely agree with James Cutts. It is a good system and anything that will bring more interest and attention to Ancients is a good thing.

JTam

10/28/22, 8:03 PM

I'm actually pretty excited about the "Epic" scale Hail Caesar rumors...

I'm listening to No Dice, No Glory Podcast Page | No Dice No Glory Episode 107: Warlord Games Update on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-g54me-1107db2e

Vitor Soares

10/29/22, 9:21 AM

@JTam so am I.

JTam

11/1/22, 1:59 PM

@Vitor Soares

Listened to this podcast yesterday:

Jon Russell of Warlord says that the Epic ACW game did very well for them, and heavily hints that an Epic Pike and Shotte and/or Epic Ancients box set would follow.

Vitor Soares

11/1/22, 6:37 PM

@JTam I thank you for the link, a couple of my British friends where at Warlord's open day and commented that thae had the same idea, or had listened to some comments.

I really like the idea of some epic scale for HC, and other historical games, I have been thinking of expanding to the smaller scales.

JTam

11/1/22, 7:43 PM

@Vitor Soares

At about 23:17 into the podcast is when he talks about possible future "Epic" releases.

It's funny, there's plenty of 13-15mm Ancients miniatures and plenty of small scale rule sets out there already.... I don't have to wait to see what Warlord puts out.... But I love me a big box set. There's just something deeply satisfying about the rules, get started booklet, the models, and maybe a little terrain, all in one big box ready to go.

JTam

11/1/22, 7:58 PM

There is another practical side to waiting for a big Warlord "Epic" release.... You might, conceivably, actually find an opponent or two when it comes out.

MD

Mark Dewis

11/1/22, 11:46 PM

So that's what happened to Warmaster Ancients... 😉

Vitor Soares

11/2/22, 4:43 PM

@JTam I am also a fan of the big box sets. Let's see what they do, but I am been looking at smaller scales to complement my collections, so we will see.

The Plastic Company 15 mm minis and ruleset are pretty good, even so I think I will wait.

Steffen Seitter

11/2/22, 4:55 PM

I hope they do classic antiquity Epic - Republican Romans, Carthaginians, Macedonnians ect. and no Imperial Romans vs. Britons/Germans.

JTam

11/2/22, 5:22 PM

@Steffen Seitter

Fingers crossed for you.

But I would personally guess Imperial Romans Vs. Germans.

Besides "Gladiator" putting it into the popular consciousness, "Barbarians" season 2 just dropped.

People love the Lorica Segmentata. And well they should.

Caratacus

11/3/22, 7:54 AM

@JTam I can certainly see them doing that for the main starter box for the new edition, though I'd rather see them do Romans vs Celts first for the eventual Epic Battles 15mm starter box because I easily would rather play Celts than Germans any day of the week.

However, I agree with @Steffen Seitter that Warlord needs to make some Carthaginians, they are such an important faction in ancient warfare and that's by far the biggest hole in Warlord's miniatures line that needs filling.

I just wish they'd stop obsessing over boring Bolt Action content for a minute and realise that their ancients line needs more attention. They still haven't released the planned Germanicus and Imperial Roman Legionaries for SPQR they were talking about last Christmas.

JTam

11/3/22, 8:39 AM

@Caratacus

I don't think they'll start with Romans VS Celts just because it feels repetitious with the SPQR box set.

As for Warlord and Bolt Action...well I think they concentrate on what sells/keeps the lights on. WW2 is the most popular period in historical gaming.

Caratacus

11/3/22, 9:45 AM

@JTam Yes I noticed that poll result (a lot of people clearly have no taste...) but it's still no excuse for Warlord to neglect their other games, and the players who prefer them, so much. It's like GW with their favourite factions getting all the attention and any others being near-as-damn-it ignored.

JTam

11/3/22, 9:54 AM

@Caratacus

Well WW2 is my number 1 interest. It's hard going through life with zero taste...but I struggle through.

There's plenty of kits/periods out there that don't interest me... But I'm well aware they made someone's day.

Caratacus

11/3/22, 10:30 AM

@JTam I'm surprised that's your favourite, given you've been a spokesman for so many other periods and themes as well, but I suppose to each their own.

Steffen Seitter

11/6/22, 3:49 AM

If Warlord Games bringt a HC Epic "Romans vs Germans" Thema, I'm sure they repeat the same mistakes and bring only Early (Claudian) Imperial Legionaries with Lorica Segmentata but neglect those with Mail and Scale which were the only variants in the east (Segmentata are only proven in the west) and also more common in the west while the Auxilliary will be also those of the Claudian Reforms type which didn't exist at the Time of the early Empire when "Auxillia" was only a term for collecting all kinds of foreign troops in roman service when they maybe bring a Teutoburg Forrest Starter.

A Julius Caesar Thema with Marian Romans and Celts would be okay when they also bring other factions of that period like Late Ptolemaic and Iberians.

Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

11/6/22, 3:27 PM

I am 100% on your line, Steffen.

Republican legions under Marius, Sylla, Sertorius, Pompey father and son, Caesar, Crassus, Marc Antony, Octavus-Augustus, etc., with possibilities of "westernizing" or "orientalizing" the soldiers (hamatae and squamatae, spanish gladii, "oval" shields, and various helmets : Coolus, Mannheim, Agen, Port + late "Montefortino" for the West, Italic and Hellenistic models for the East, etc.).

Adversaries under all latitudes : from the Cantabrian mountains to Judea, and from Britannia to Mauritania... without forgetting the servile wars (Spartacus, Sicily) and the campaigns against the pirates of the Mediterranean coasts.

The History of the end of the Republic (1st century BCE) is fantastically interesting : four or five (?) consecutive Roman civil wars, plus foreign wars and various "tumulti" (raids, hard troubles, insurrections, piracy).

The line would have a core of Roman legionaries, with a lot of ethnic light and mounted contingents. It would be an intermediate line between Victrix Republican Romans and Victrix Imperial Romans.

No "Hollywood like" s***. Sources : Osprey and Republican Roman reenactment (good troops in Germany, Spain, or France...).

Lord Marcus Moderator

11/7/22, 2:08 PM

ugh. More books to buy. 1rst edition plays well.

Lord Marcus Moderator

11/7/22, 2:10 PM

@Caratacus it is the only excuse.

The bottom line rules all. at least for miniatures companies with a limited customer base.

JTam

11/7/22, 2:47 PM

@Lord Marcus

I would tend to think new edition will not invalidate the supplement books. 90% of the "Armies of.... " books stayed the same when Bolt Action 2nd Edition came out.

JTam

11/7/22, 2:48 PM

@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

What better sources do you recommend?

Lord Marcus Moderator

11/7/22, 3:58 PM

@JTam For what, specficially, are you looking for?

Miniatures should be designed for a specific period, people, civilization, unit type, etc. and designers should use proper historical research with primary, secondary and tertiary documentation.

Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

11/7/22, 4:14 PM

With great pleasure, Comrade...

As a Basque(-Roman) reenactor, I was a veteran of the Sertorius' Army in the Pyrenean Mountains (Sertorian war, Iacetania - Huesca, from 80 to 72 BCE), then defensor of the Aquitanian mountains during the Gallic war(s) (against Crassus, the Young, lieutenant of Caesar, 57-56 BCE), and finally rallied to Pompeius Magnus' lieutenants (Marcus Petreius and Lucius Afranius), against Caesar, during the Civil war (crossing the mountains, then operations in the Ebro valley, Ilerda/Lerida 49 BCE).

The main military period in the area begins for us with the siege of Numancia (133 BCE) and ends with the Cantabrian wars (29-19 BCE).

Aquitanian peoples and tribes were ethnically and culturally linked to Basques (the generic old name is Vascones), Iberians and Cantabric tribes. Gallic Celts and Spanish Celtiberians were invaders for us, ie. our traditional enemies : for example, we did not join the insurrection of Vercingetorix...

Instead, we often joined the ranks of the Roman armies as auxiliaries. This Roman alliance allowed us to keep our language and social organisation as allies throughout the Empire. This is one of the reasons why Basque (euskara) is still spoken now, while Iberian or Gaulish are dead languages !

The context is set... If you give me a week, I'll give you the (easy) sources (books and links) to get a good start through this misunderstood period of the Roman History.

JTam

11/8/22, 6:35 PM

@Lord Marcus @Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

I'm assuming your "Ancients" library is robust. Is there any standout books for you? Personal favorites? I know it's hard without narrowing down what I'm interested in. I guess I'm more interested in nuts and bolts. Rations, weapons, tactics, etc.

JTam

11/8/22, 6:38 PM

What are your ideas for an Epic Hail Caesar box set?

Would you have a different idea for a 28mm Hail Caesar box set?

Right now Warlord has a 28mm and Epic Waterloo Black Powder box set.

Steffen Seitter

11/9/22, 4:26 AM

I would say a one of this for Epic HC:

Punic War Set with Republican Romans and Carthaginians:

9x Infantry (3x Hastati, 3x Principes, 3x Triarri)
3x Leves Skimisher
2x Equites Cavalry

6x Libo-Phoenician Hoplites
3x Celtic/Celtiberian Infantry
3x Libyan Skimisher
2x Numidian Cavalry

Gallic War Set with Late Republican (Marian) Romans and Gauls

9x Legionaries
3x Celtic/Greek/Iberian Skimishers
2x Numidian Cavalry
1x Greek Cavalry

9x Gallic Infantry
3x Gallic Skimisher
2x Gallic Medium Cavalry
1x Gallic Light Cavalry

But I fear (as noted earlier) we get Claudian Imperial Romans vs Germans during the Reign of Augustus with "Hollywood Roman" Legionaries only in Lorica Segmentata and post 42 AD Auxilliaries, all with uniform helmet types and other clichees.

Lord Marcus Moderator

11/9/22, 11:56 AM

@JTam for which army or period. "ancients" covers everything from late rome/late antiquity backward.

General book reccomendations? Legionary by Pilip Matyszak is an enjoyable read with good early empire information.

https://www.amazon.com/Legionary-Roman-Soldiers-Unofficial-Manual/dp/0500251517/ref=asc_df_0500251517/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312090128763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1686992828756700927&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011703&hvtargid=pla-571254494396&psc=1

https://www.warlordgames.com/hobby-making-caesarean-romans/

Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

11/9/22, 1:07 PM

Honestly, it's better to avoid trying "to go faster than the music", as we say in French.

The Roman army before the reforms of Marius (c. 107 BCE) is not the same as the armies of the civil wars (from 10 legions up to 40, plus ethnic auxiliaries of all types !). Those armies of the imperatores are different from the army of Augustus (as Princeps), Tiberius, Claudius and Nero (c. 27 legions and "Romanization", step by step, of the auxiliaries). The army of Trajan takes place at the end of a very long process...

When you want to make a good work with Roman miniatures of the Late Republican and First imperial periods, you first need to understand the evolution of the Roman army between 107 BCE and the 50s AD.

Victrix and Warlord lines of minis can be adapted on a clever way, and Osprey books can help a lot (it's all about choosing the right ones). See, for example : "Hobby : Making Caesarean Romans", by Andrés (www.warlordgames.com). It's clever, well done and accurate.

JTam

11/9/22, 1:41 PM

Reference a box set:

How about "Masada!"

Good name recognition. Defies expectations a little. Still has that sweet, sweet, Imperial Roman flavor players crave.

X Legion Vs. Zealots.

Whoops!

This one:

Interesting contrast between the disciplined, heavily armored Romans Vs. a very lightly equipped foe.

Scenarios for the wider uprising. Maybe some ramps and siege machines in the box?

JTam

11/9/22, 1:55 PM

@Lord Marcus

That is right up my alley. Ordered. Thank You.

JTam

11/9/22, 2:08 PM

@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

Good read:

Thank You.

Pierre Lerdou-Udoy

11/9/22, 2:10 PM

For example, in the eyes of a connoisseur of the Roman army, the Aquilifer on the photo in black and white is out of the game... Why ?

His function (bearing the sacred ensign of the Legion) assimilates him as a young officer : to mark the strength of a legion, he should wear a lion skin or a bear skin, and certainly not a wolf skin... The leather cuirass is no more probable : either he should wear a muscular cuirass (in bronze), either a hamata with medals (phaleras, torques).

He is a young officer in the Praetorian Cohort, not a light infantryman ! "Hollywood"...

The other images (1st, 3rd and last one) are datable and based on the current state of knowledge. No problem.

JTam

11/9/22, 2:11 PM

Any one familiar with this series of books?

I'm currently on a Dacian kick.

JTam

11/9/22, 8:51 PM

Which leads to the possible box set "Dacia."

The Dacians have an interesting and distinctive look with a signature weapon.

Warlord already did a really nice campaign book on the war(a).

Possible title "Trajan's Triumph".

Although that's a bit of spoiler ;)

https://warlord-community.warlordgames.com/incoming-new-edition-hail-caesar/

Steffen Seitter

11/10/22, 6:01 AM

How about Wars of the Diadochoi?

2x Greco-Macedonian Armies with each:

8x Greco-Macedonian Phlangitai Infantry
4x Greco-Macedonian Late Peltast / Thureohporoi Infantry
4x Thracian Infantry
8x Greco-Macedonian Psiloi Skimisher
4x Medo-Persian or Thracian Skimisher4x Hippei Cavalry
2x Greco-Macedonian Hetairoi/Xystophoroi Cavalry
2x Thracian Cavalry
1x Macedonian Agema Cavalry

Core products could be Greco-Macedonians expanted by foreign Mercenaries for certain Armies. WIth Persians it could be expanted to the Conquest Alexander the Great.

Wars of the Diadochoi (also the second Punic War and Late Republican Roman Civil Wars) are perfect settings for character packs.

Caratacus

11/10/22, 9:02 AM

The new edition is arriving on pre-order tomorrow:

The book looks good, the Starter Set less so, being pretty much the same as the current Roman Invasion of Britain one except for Caesarian Romans replacing the Imperial Legionaries and the mounted Roman and Celtic commander models being omitted, though the mounted Chieftain will appear in a new Starter Box for the Celts along with, interestingly, the Warlord Resin cavalry that debuted with SPQR rather than the plastic/metal hybrid box (I hope they don't try and get rid of that one because as a Briton player I can't take chainmail-clad cavalry and that box used the Celtic Warriors sprue as its basis which had mostly unarmoured bodies, whereas the SPQR ones were designed for Gauls and this mostly wear chainmail).

JTam

11/10/22, 1:09 PM

@Steffen Seitter

That might be a great idea for Warlord. They can get by with half as many sprues similar to the Epic American Civil War set.

I would call the box set "To The Strongest!"

JTam

11/10/22, 1:14 PM

@Caratacus

The book does look great.

I will definitely be taking advantage of this:

The starter box is as you said a bit disappointing. It's basically the SPQR box set time 3 or something, but with the characters and archers missing. At least include resin Asterix and Obelix miniatures.

JTam

11/10/22, 1:16 PM

@Lord Marcus

Sounds like the new rulebook will not invalidate the supplements.

Also, I guess first edition came out 10 years ago... So a new edition every decade doesn't seem too excessive.

JTam

11/10/22, 2:10 PM

The fact that it's the same Cesarean Romans and same Gauls/Celts as in the SPQR box set tells me that Warlord really does need some new Ancients plastics.

Maybe Ancients just don't sell well enough to justify the outlay??? But Victrix and Gripping Beast are still evidently turning something that resembles a profit. And WGA keeps coming out with Ancients sets, which is something I assume they wouldn't do if the previous boxes were complete money sinks.

JTam

11/10/22, 2:18 PM

I would assume the rulebook will be about $56.

I can justify that with the nice production values, nice mini, and the SIGNATURE.

Shipping is the only kick in the nuts.

JTam

11/10/22, 2:21 PM

Free shipping at $80?

Eighty dollars is TOO easy to do these days.

Steffen Seitter

11/10/22, 3:28 PM

Maybe is WLG sparing capacities for an Epic Battles Releases?

About my Ideas; They could easily expand this Dadochoi Thema later with Republican Romans, Carthaginians, Iberians, Celts ect. for a full Hellenistic / Republican Roman Period of Antiquity in the same way as they could expand a Punic War Thema.

The Punic Wars arer technical incooperating the complete mediterranian World of that Period. Including the parallel running Macedonian Wars every culture was involved: Roman/Italic, Punic, Celtic, Iberian, Greek, Illyrian, Thracian, Eastern.

JTam

11/10/22, 4:31 PM

@Steffen Seitter

Diverting energies/funds to the Epic set? Plausible and appetizing.