Cat's out of the bag:
I might pick this up... Will depend on if the associated book miniature is awesome and if I can get a signed edition.....
Anyone have thoughts on the current edition?
Hail Caesar - New Edition Coming
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The existing edition is a pretty solid set of "ancients" rules in the usual Priestley warmaster style. Not the most indepth but easy, reasonably quick and fun to play. The cover a huge period too, right upto medevial stuff. I cant see them drastically changing anything, this will be more of a refinement similar to what Black Powder recieved.
Will be great if it start renewed interest in ancients, maybe we'll see some new kits from Wargames Atlantic ;) A lot of the existing plastics especially from Warlord are very dated.
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@James Cutts
Thank You!
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I have played it a lot, and completely agree with James Cutts. It is a good system and anything that will bring more interest and attention to Ancients is a good thing.
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I'm actually pretty excited about the "Epic" scale Hail Caesar rumors...
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@JTam so am I.
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@Vitor Soares
Listened to this podcast yesterday:
Jon Russell of Warlord says that the Epic ACW game did very well for them, and heavily hints that an Epic Pike and Shotte and/or Epic Ancients box set would follow.
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@JTam I thank you for the link, a couple of my British friends where at Warlord's open day and commented that thae had the same idea, or had listened to some comments.
I really like the idea of some epic scale for HC, and other historical games, I have been thinking of expanding to the smaller scales.
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@Vitor Soares
At about 23:17 into the podcast is when he talks about possible future "Epic" releases.
It's funny, there's plenty of 13-15mm Ancients miniatures and plenty of small scale rule sets out there already.... I don't have to wait to see what Warlord puts out.... But I love me a big box set. There's just something deeply satisfying about the rules, get started booklet, the models, and maybe a little terrain, all in one big box ready to go.
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There is another practical side to waiting for a big Warlord "Epic" release.... You might, conceivably, actually find an opponent or two when it comes out.
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So that's what happened to Warmaster Ancients... 😉
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@JTam I am also a fan of the big box sets. Let's see what they do, but I am been looking at smaller scales to complement my collections, so we will see.
The Plastic Company 15 mm minis and ruleset are pretty good, even so I think I will wait.
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I hope they do classic antiquity Epic - Republican Romans, Carthaginians, Macedonnians ect. and no Imperial Romans vs. Britons/Germans.
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@Steffen Seitter
Fingers crossed for you.
But I would personally guess Imperial Romans Vs. Germans.
Besides "Gladiator" putting it into the popular consciousness, "Barbarians" season 2 just dropped.
People love the Lorica Segmentata. And well they should.
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@JTam I can certainly see them doing that for the main starter box for the new edition, though I'd rather see them do Romans vs Celts first for the eventual Epic Battles 15mm starter box because I easily would rather play Celts than Germans any day of the week.
However, I agree with @Steffen Seitter that Warlord needs to make some Carthaginians, they are such an important faction in ancient warfare and that's by far the biggest hole in Warlord's miniatures line that needs filling.
I just wish they'd stop obsessing over boring Bolt Action content for a minute and realise that their ancients line needs more attention. They still haven't released the planned Germanicus and Imperial Roman Legionaries for SPQR they were talking about last Christmas.
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@Caratacus
I don't think they'll start with Romans VS Celts just because it feels repetitious with the SPQR box set.
As for Warlord and Bolt Action...well I think they concentrate on what sells/keeps the lights on. WW2 is the most popular period in historical gaming.
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@JTam Yes I noticed that poll result (a lot of people clearly have no taste...) but it's still no excuse for Warlord to neglect their other games, and the players who prefer them, so much. It's like GW with their favourite factions getting all the attention and any others being near-as-damn-it ignored.
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@Caratacus
Well WW2 is my number 1 interest. It's hard going through life with zero taste...but I struggle through.
There's plenty of kits/periods out there that don't interest me... But I'm well aware they made someone's day.
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@JTam I'm surprised that's your favourite, given you've been a spokesman for so many other periods and themes as well, but I suppose to each their own.
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If Warlord Games bringt a HC Epic "Romans vs Germans" Thema, I'm sure they repeat the same mistakes and bring only Early (Claudian) Imperial Legionaries with Lorica Segmentata but neglect those with Mail and Scale which were the only variants in the east (Segmentata are only proven in the west) and also more common in the west while the Auxilliary will be also those of the Claudian Reforms type which didn't exist at the Time of the early Empire when "Auxillia" was only a term for collecting all kinds of foreign troops in roman service when they maybe bring a Teutoburg Forrest Starter.
A Julius Caesar Thema with Marian Romans and Celts would be okay when they also bring other factions of that period like Late Ptolemaic and Iberians.
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I am 100% on your line, Steffen.
Republican legions under Marius, Sylla, Sertorius, Pompey father and son, Caesar, Crassus, Marc Antony, Octavus-Augustus, etc., with possibilities of "westernizing" or "orientalizing" the soldiers (hamatae and squamatae, spanish gladii, "oval" shields, and various helmets : Coolus, Mannheim, Agen, Port + late "Montefortino" for the West, Italic and Hellenistic models for the East, etc.).
Adversaries under all latitudes : from the Cantabrian mountains to Judea, and from Britannia to Mauritania... without forgetting the servile wars (Spartacus, Sicily) and the campaigns against the pirates of the Mediterranean coasts.
The History of the end of the Republic (1st century BCE) is fantastically interesting : four or five (?) consecutive Roman civil wars, plus foreign wars and various "tumulti" (raids, hard troubles, insurrections, piracy).
The line would have a core of Roman legionaries, with a lot of ethnic light and mounted contingents. It would be an intermediate line between Victrix Republican Romans and Victrix Imperial Romans.
No "Hollywood like" s***. Sources : Osprey and Republican Roman reenactment (good troops in Germany, Spain, or France...).
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Lord Marcus Moderatorugh. More books to buy. 1rst edition plays well.
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Lord Marcus Moderator
@Caratacus it is the only excuse.
The bottom line rules all. at least for miniatures companies with a limited customer base.
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@Lord Marcus
I would tend to think new edition will not invalidate the supplement books. 90% of the "Armies of.... " books stayed the same when Bolt Action 2nd Edition came out.
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@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy
What better sources do you recommend?
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Lord Marcus Moderator
@JTam For what, specficially, are you looking for?
Miniatures should be designed for a specific period, people, civilization, unit type, etc. and designers should use proper historical research with primary, secondary and tertiary documentation.
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With great pleasure, Comrade...
As a Basque(-Roman) reenactor, I was a veteran of the Sertorius' Army in the Pyrenean Mountains (Sertorian war, Iacetania - Huesca, from 80 to 72 BCE), then defensor of the Aquitanian mountains during the Gallic war(s) (against Crassus, the Young, lieutenant of Caesar, 57-56 BCE), and finally rallied to Pompeius Magnus' lieutenants (Marcus Petreius and Lucius Afranius), against Caesar, during the Civil war (crossing the mountains, then operations in the Ebro valley, Ilerda/Lerida 49 BCE).
The main military period in the area begins for us with the siege of Numancia (133 BCE) and ends with the Cantabrian wars (29-19 BCE).
Aquitanian peoples and tribes were ethnically and culturally linked to Basques (the generic old name is Vascones), Iberians and Cantabric tribes. Gallic Celts and Spanish Celtiberians were invaders for us, ie. our traditional enemies : for example, we did not join the insurrection of Vercingetorix...
Instead, we often joined the ranks of the Roman armies as auxiliaries. This Roman alliance allowed us to keep our language and social organisation as allies throughout the Empire. This is one of the reasons why Basque (euskara) is still spoken now, while Iberian or Gaulish are dead languages !
The context is set... If you give me a week, I'll give you the (easy) sources (books and links) to get a good start through this misunderstood period of the Roman History.
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@Lord Marcus @Pierre Lerdou-Udoy
I'm assuming your "Ancients" library is robust. Is there any standout books for you? Personal favorites? I know it's hard without narrowing down what I'm interested in. I guess I'm more interested in nuts and bolts. Rations, weapons, tactics, etc.
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What are your ideas for an Epic Hail Caesar box set?
Would you have a different idea for a 28mm Hail Caesar box set?
Right now Warlord has a 28mm and Epic Waterloo Black Powder box set.
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I would say a one of this for Epic HC:
Punic War Set with Republican Romans and Carthaginians:
9x Infantry (3x Hastati, 3x Principes, 3x Triarri)
3x Leves Skimisher
2x Equites Cavalry6x Libo-Phoenician Hoplites
3x Celtic/Celtiberian Infantry
3x Libyan Skimisher
2x Numidian CavalryGallic War Set with Late Republican (Marian) Romans and Gauls
9x Legionaries
3x Celtic/Greek/Iberian Skimishers
2x Numidian Cavalry
1x Greek Cavalry9x Gallic Infantry
3x Gallic Skimisher
2x Gallic Medium Cavalry
1x Gallic Light CavalryBut I fear (as noted earlier) we get Claudian Imperial Romans vs Germans during the Reign of Augustus with "Hollywood Roman" Legionaries only in Lorica Segmentata and post 42 AD Auxilliaries, all with uniform helmet types and other clichees.
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Lord Marcus Moderator
@JTam for which army or period. "ancients" covers everything from late rome/late antiquity backward.
General book reccomendations? Legionary by Pilip Matyszak is an enjoyable read with good early empire information.
https://www.amazon.com/Legionary-Roman-Soldiers-Unofficial-Manual/dp/0500251517/ref=asc_df_0500251517/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312090128763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1686992828756700927&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011703&hvtargid=pla-571254494396&psc=1
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Honestly, it's better to avoid trying "to go faster than the music", as we say in French.
The Roman army before the reforms of Marius (c. 107 BCE) is not the same as the armies of the civil wars (from 10 legions up to 40, plus ethnic auxiliaries of all types !). Those armies of the imperatores are different from the army of Augustus (as Princeps), Tiberius, Claudius and Nero (c. 27 legions and "Romanization", step by step, of the auxiliaries). The army of Trajan takes place at the end of a very long process...
When you want to make a good work with Roman miniatures of the Late Republican and First imperial periods, you first need to understand the evolution of the Roman army between 107 BCE and the 50s AD.
Victrix and Warlord lines of minis can be adapted on a clever way, and Osprey books can help a lot (it's all about choosing the right ones). See, for example : "Hobby : Making Caesarean Romans", by Andrés (www.warlordgames.com). It's clever, well done and accurate.
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Reference a box set:
How about "Masada!"
Good name recognition. Defies expectations a little. Still has that sweet, sweet, Imperial Roman flavor players crave.
X Legion Vs. Zealots.
Whoops!
This one:
Interesting contrast between the disciplined, heavily armored Romans Vs. a very lightly equipped foe.
Scenarios for the wider uprising. Maybe some ramps and siege machines in the box?
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@Lord Marcus
That is right up my alley. Ordered. Thank You.
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@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy
Good read:
https://www.warlordgames.com/hobby-making-caesarean-romans/
Thank You.
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For example, in the eyes of a connoisseur of the Roman army, the Aquilifer on the photo in black and white is out of the game... Why ?
His function (bearing the sacred ensign of the Legion) assimilates him as a young officer : to mark the strength of a legion, he should wear a lion skin or a bear skin, and certainly not a wolf skin... The leather cuirass is no more probable : either he should wear a muscular cuirass (in bronze), either a hamata with medals (phaleras, torques).
He is a young officer in the Praetorian Cohort, not a light infantryman ! "Hollywood"...
The other images (1st, 3rd and last one) are datable and based on the current state of knowledge. No problem.
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Any one familiar with this series of books?
I'm currently on a Dacian kick.
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Which leads to the possible box set "Dacia."
The Dacians have an interesting and distinctive look with a signature weapon.
Warlord already did a really nice campaign book on the war(a).
Possible title "Trajan's Triumph".
Although that's a bit of spoiler ;)
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How about Wars of the Diadochoi?
2x Greco-Macedonian Armies with each:
8x Greco-Macedonian Phlangitai Infantry
4x Greco-Macedonian Late Peltast / Thureohporoi Infantry
4x Thracian Infantry
8x Greco-Macedonian Psiloi Skimisher
4x Medo-Persian or Thracian Skimisher4x Hippei Cavalry
2x Greco-Macedonian Hetairoi/Xystophoroi Cavalry
2x Thracian Cavalry
1x Macedonian Agema CavalryCore products could be Greco-Macedonians expanted by foreign Mercenaries for certain Armies. WIth Persians it could be expanted to the Conquest Alexander the Great.
Wars of the Diadochoi (also the second Punic War and Late Republican Roman Civil Wars) are perfect settings for character packs.
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The new edition is arriving on pre-order tomorrow:
https://warlord-community.warlordgames.com/incoming-new-edition-hail-caesar/
The book looks good, the Starter Set less so, being pretty much the same as the current Roman Invasion of Britain one except for Caesarian Romans replacing the Imperial Legionaries and the mounted Roman and Celtic commander models being omitted, though the mounted Chieftain will appear in a new Starter Box for the Celts along with, interestingly, the Warlord Resin cavalry that debuted with SPQR rather than the plastic/metal hybrid box (I hope they don't try and get rid of that one because as a Briton player I can't take chainmail-clad cavalry and that box used the Celtic Warriors sprue as its basis which had mostly unarmoured bodies, whereas the SPQR ones were designed for Gauls and this mostly wear chainmail).
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@Steffen Seitter
That might be a great idea for Warlord. They can get by with half as many sprues similar to the Epic American Civil War set.
I would call the box set "To The Strongest!"
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@Caratacus
The book does look great.
I will definitely be taking advantage of this:
The starter box is as you said a bit disappointing. It's basically the SPQR box set time 3 or something, but with the characters and archers missing. At least include resin Asterix and Obelix miniatures.
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@Lord Marcus
Sounds like the new rulebook will not invalidate the supplements.
Also, I guess first edition came out 10 years ago... So a new edition every decade doesn't seem too excessive.
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The fact that it's the same Cesarean Romans and same Gauls/Celts as in the SPQR box set tells me that Warlord really does need some new Ancients plastics.
Maybe Ancients just don't sell well enough to justify the outlay??? But Victrix and Gripping Beast are still evidently turning something that resembles a profit. And WGA keeps coming out with Ancients sets, which is something I assume they wouldn't do if the previous boxes were complete money sinks.
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I would assume the rulebook will be about $56.
I can justify that with the nice production values, nice mini, and the SIGNATURE.
Shipping is the only kick in the nuts.
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Free shipping at $80?
Eighty dollars is TOO easy to do these days.
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Maybe is WLG sparing capacities for an Epic Battles Releases?
About my Ideas; They could easily expand this Dadochoi Thema later with Republican Romans, Carthaginians, Iberians, Celts ect. for a full Hellenistic / Republican Roman Period of Antiquity in the same way as they could expand a Punic War Thema.
The Punic Wars arer technical incooperating the complete mediterranian World of that Period. Including the parallel running Macedonian Wars every culture was involved: Roman/Italic, Punic, Celtic, Iberian, Greek, Illyrian, Thracian, Eastern.
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@Steffen Seitter
Diverting energies/funds to the Epic set? Plausible and appetizing.
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JTam... The Roman history offers clearly a lot of possibilities.
Advise on making your choice ; start with browsing "Timeline of Roman history" on Wikipedia. You will spot the wars and peoples concerned with a quick eye, century by century. If you see an era that particularly speaks to you, then you will be able to go further...
If you decide, for example, to work on the 3rd/2nd century BCE, you'll chose a core of Victrix Republican Romans...
For the 1st century BCE, Warlord Romans will be the good basic line for you (mixed with Victrix Rep. Romans wearing chainmails, possible conversions)...
And for the 1st century AD, Victrix Imperial legionaries and auxiliaries will be OK.
Rome's allies and enemies now : Gauls/Celts are usable mainly for the 1st and 2nd period, and as Britons for the 3rd ; Hellenistic warriors are usable for the 1st and the 2nd period (Hellenistic kingdoms, Pontus, Palestina) ; Germanic tribes are usable for the 2nd and the 3rd period ; Iberians for the 1st and the 2nd ; Dacians for the 2nd (as Illyrians) and the 3rd, and so on...
Mix are sometimes possible : Cimbrians and Teutons were a mix of Germanic and Celtic peoples together, Belgae idem ; Celtiberians were a mix between Celts and Iberians... A Jewish army (4 interesting periods are possible : c. -150 (revolt of the Maccabees), c. -63 (Roman 1st siege of Jerusalem), 60-70 AD (Zealots, Masada), and Bar Kokhba revolt (c. 135, destruction of Jerusalem) can be a mix with Hellenistic, Oriental and Roman elements of the time, plus civilian ones...
You can work only with Romans (2 armies as a core), adding ethnic auxiliary units to evoque the "clientèle" (the area of influence) of the Imperator. For example : the Caesar's army of the civil war was constituted with a core of Roman citizens (1/2), plus Gaulish and Germanic warriors (1/2) ; the Pompeius Magnus' army was recruited among Roman citizens (1/2), plus Hellenistic and Spanish warriors (1/2).
The possibilities are wide. Osprey covers the entire period (Warrior, Elite, Combat or Men-at-Arms) : excellent basic source, as those who write for Osprey are often recognized specialists, historians and archaeologists. When you will make your first choice, read "Roman Legionary" (dates, according to the period you're in) and "Rome's enemies" (according to the front you want to evoke). Possibility of focus : Roman Standards and Standard-bearers (Eli 221), for example...
Salve, Amice !
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@JTam While I like the existing plastic Romans, Celts and Greeks Warlord make, I certainly agree they could certainly put more effort into making some new Ancients plastics - it's obvious as to the success of plastic Ancients because, as you say, Victrix, WA and also Agema are all doing well with selling them - proof enough that they are highly desirable. Not to mention that Gripping Beast are planning a new range of plastics to go with their great Dark Ages sets, which is highly likely to be Ancients as those periods are what they specialise in.
If Hail Caesar 2nd Edition sells well, particularly when they eventually release Epic Battles stuff for it, perhaps that will be the catalyst Warlord needs?
I couldn't help laughing at the mention of free Asterix and Obelix models, but in a game of Hail Caesar or SPQR they'd be game-breaking 😋 (especially Obelix). Forget Slaine, Warlord need to make an Asterix comic book miniatures game!
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