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New Brits

  • MD

    Ready for tooling WW1 Brits and no one has posted here yet? Blimey!

  • Grumpy Gnome

    I know... I thought there would be more excitement about the sprue that was teased. Even Dakkadakka was more quiet about it than I expected.

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

    https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/

  • JTam

    I think the lack of excitement is strangely due to how long people have been waiting.  The reaction is more "Oh, weren't they out already?"

    I'm far from the first person to note this... But if WGA was a little less scattergun (which I kind of personally enjoy) and more focused with releases they could perhaps generate more excitement/buzz/sales.  I.E. there would be more excitement/sales if the French, Germans, and British and their support weapons came out about the same time.  People want to be able to buy "complete" forces.  And there is only a limited window to capitalize on initial excitement.  

    This is kind of like the self defeating slow roll out of Necromunda.  

    As always my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

  • MD

    Oddly, I'm less pumped for these because my main focus for Brits is 19thC colonial. Perry make two excellent kits for those already, and all I really need for the 1888 to Boer War period are Lee-Metfords/early Lee-Enfields (they're almost indistinguishable from each other at 28mm). Although you CAN make a fair copy of those by gluing the front half of a Martini-Henry (of which I have a surfeit in 28mm) on to the back half of a SMLE. So I will get this kit. 

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Brief article over on Beasts of War with full sprue shots... I will be curious to see what comments they get over there.

     

    https://www.beastsofwar.com/modern-warfare/wargames-atlantics-28mm-ww1-british-plastic-kit/

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

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  • MH

    @JTam Yup! I just got tired of waiting. 

     

  • Mold

    @JTam I agree, I had assumed it was taking awhile because they were sculpting an additional body and pose like what was said when the set was announced. Although, I was pretty excited to see that they incorporated woseley helmets after so many people had asked for them. It's a bit disappointing not having an officer or any Anzac heads, especially the slouch hat, which seemed to be requested by a few people.


    Maybe they could release a separate sprue for these since there seems to be some interest in a sprue like that. Overall, it still looks like a solid set. 

  • JTam

    For reference during discussion.

    They do look really good.

  • JTam

    @Mold 

    Well a "Command / accessory" sprue ala the Italian Infantry box would have been very welcome.  

    But failing that I'm glad we aren't ending up with 5 officer bodies ala the French Infantry box set.  

    Various alternate heads and an officer body seem like an ideal thing for the STL line.

  • Bill Thomas

    I'm hoping there is an officer (perhaps a command section?) as you say chaps, as this would round things out nicely... just started exploring some new "small unit/trench raider" WWI rules so these will be perfect :)

    “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

  • MD

    @Bill Thomas agreed. If there is a second sprue with an officer body it might expain all of the 6th heads on the main sprue. We could hope for Commonwealth heads as well (Sikhs, Bush hats).

    If not, the French officer body is a fair substitute. Remove the front lacing, or convert the boots to puttees. British officers purchased their own pistols (although the Webley was still a common choice), so you could even use the French issue revolver if you felt like it. Or a Colt M1911.

    https://collections.royalarmouries.org/first-world-war/type/rac-narrative-75.html

    "Officially the sidearm of the US military, British and Canadian officers also made use of the M1911 through private purchase. It proved a popular choice amongst soldiers in the harsh conditions of the trenches, as it rarely misfired."

    Trophy Mausers and Lugers were also in use. Potentially ammunition supply was an issue, but if you're looting guns there's usually ammo handy too. Plus pistols would tend to only be fired occasionally, such as during a trench raid.

    In any case, you could model a British officer with any historically available handgun and not be wrong. 

  • JTam

    @Mark Dewis 

    There's a nice break action revolver as well as a holster on the British sprue. 

  • JTam

    @Bill Thomas 

    What are these trench raiding rules?  

  • Mold

    @Mark Dewis I hope there's a second sprue with exactly those heads and an officer but we will have to wait and see.

    I think the upcoming Russian infantry set would also be a good substitute for a British officer in the unfortunate event the British don't have an officer. They both seem to have a similar looking harness attached to their belt.

  • Bill Thomas

    @Mark Dewis I believe I have a suitable officer to go with these fine troops 🤣

    I've saved up a bunch of Webleys (along with 1911s, Lugers and Mausers) from "other sprues" so I'm fine for creating trench raiders, and I'm pretty certain in that type of scenario they would have picked up what was at hand... and we know the old "broomhandle" was a bit of a favourite for many, and there's one on the German sprue I believe 😍

    @JTam there's a new outfit showing some beta rules for a game called "Scouts Out" at the moment if you haven't yet found them of facebook... nothing ground breaking but simple and quick by the look of things... and they have some nice wee figures themselves 😉

    “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

  • JTam

    @Bill Thomas 

    I'll check out "Scouts Out.".   Thank You.

    The pictured miniature is a great choice.  Is that a Wargames Illustrated mini?

    There's a "broom handle" on the French Resistance sprue as well..

     

     

  • Bill Thomas

    @JTam yes, I noticed that, and one on the Boxers sprue too I think?

    And again yes; the "Lord Flash" figure was the WI show figure for SALUTE... 2019 I think from memory. I created a "pulp" style adventuring group around him, so I think they'll all have to come out of the box 🧐

    There's a neat little "Freikorps" scenario in the in the One Hour Wargames book that I think could be modified to work with Flash and his friends playing the investigating side; I'll be needing some British Riflemen and a Lewis Gunner, so the new set will be ideal 😍

    “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

  • JTam

    Another Wargames Illustrated miniature that would make a great leader for the WGA Brits:

    The miniatures uniform and equipment is generic enough to be WW1 or 2.

    https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/product/adrian-carton-de-wiart/

    https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=12965

     

     

  • JTam

    @Bill Thomas 

    Good call on the Boxers.  I didn't realize there was a broom handle on the sprue.  

    All that bare wrist would facilitate the old drill out the end of the arm and insert the wrist part way in ... creating a super strong conversion.

  • AL

    A week really is a lifetime on the internet. I've been so wrapped up in other things I just noticed the announcement today. But this is really cool and I'm very glad to get these in plastic. Someone has already mentioned the odd arrangement of the webbing on the back of the figures. I'm not going to stress about it because when the backpack is on it won't be visible. 

    Some things about the sprue I really like. There are enough components to make a full lewis gun section, which is the gunner, the number 2, and six men to carry ammunition. I love the pail of lewis gun drums. I can't think of another line that offers that. 

    For anyone wanting to model soldiers on a trench raid, private soldiers often carried pistols on raids instead of rifles so the pistol arm is great to have.

    Ive seen complaints about too much gear on the sprue, but actually there are many more things they could have included.  There is no leather jerkin, no sheepskin. The Sikh turban. The Australian hat.  Kilts, kilt covers. No Gor Blimey cap! A rifle grenade will be easy enough to model with putty. If you really wanted to capture the early war you would need a different head for the gas helmet. The whole subject is way too vast to capture on one sprue. So I think they did a good job of picking some essentials and there are lots of great figures to be made from this.

    Looking forward to getting these.

  • MD

    As far as officer equipments, you really need the Sam Browne type belt. Which the French officer has.

    Warlord are a good source for weapons - they retail their sprues direct and the WW2 British one is mostly suitable for WW1 use. Keep an eye on them this week as they have been known to do Black Friday deals. I got a bunch a few years ago at 50% off.

  • Mold

    @Allan Lougheed To say the least there is a lot that could be added to an additional sprue. Wargames Atlantic does have an upgrade sprue for deathfields so producing one for the British might be a viable option since there seems to be some interest in more poses, figures (officer), and heads such as the Australian slouch hat.

  • JTam

    @Allan Lougheed 

    Huh.  The back IS odd.

    It's regrettable that we are now forced to attach the packs.  I guarantee you few brought those a trench raiding.

    I agree with you they did a good job of picking essentials.  And the Lewis drums are indeed a nice touch.  

    The sun helmets make the kit more flexible and fun.  But I personally would have left those for the STL line and tried to fit in more typical equipment like picks, etc.  Or even better another body if possible (maybe with jerkin).

  • MD

    I don't buy the line that it was too hard to do the X staps; every other manufacturer (Warlord, Perry) does not seem to have any issues with that. Feels more like the sculptor made a mistake and it wasn't picked up before tooling.

    @JTam outside of the Western Front, sun hats were default. You'll need them for Palestine, which is arguably a better theatre for WW1 wargaming anyway. Gallipoli, too.

    Watering the Desert - Away from the Western Front

    Lest we forget our other heroes of war | CNN

    Tin hats were generally not worn there. Too hot.

    (However, I'll concede it was most common to see them worn with shorts.) 

  • Mold

    Although I still think they should add an officer body to the sprue, among other things, technically you can still make one with a regular soldiers body as seen in the image below.

  • JTam

    @Mark Dewis 

    Just what would you say the ratio of Western Front to all other WW1 Theaters gamers is?  

    I know there some weird street cred with historical gamers about gaming/talking about the most niche stuff they can find....   But gaming the WW1 Africa campaigns is the fringe of the fringe of a fringe.  

    Ditching the sun hats would definitely have made room for picks, shovels, and other equipment.... Or perhaps even another body.

     

    Also the British weapons sprue is indeed on sale now:

    The rifles are WW2 types, but acceptable in 28mm if you snip off or don't use the ones with spike bayonets.  

    Plenty of shovels and a pick to festoon the advancing Infantry with.  The Mills bombs are useful too.

    Not approp to WW1 but I love the Bren accessory bag on the sprue.  Warlord did a great job here.  

  • Grumpy Gnome

    I would suggest these Brits with the sun helmets work for more than just WW1. 

    Both “Pulp” and “Back of Beyond” gaming for example...

    https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/list.php?cat=2&sub=12&page=1

    https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?board=4.0

    Raglan over on Lead Adventure really sold me on Interwar Back of Beyond gaming. It is part of the mix of interests that has drawn me to the Quar. 

    Here are some of his sun helmet wearing BoB Brits.

    Here is the thread this photo is from...

    https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=112073.315

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

    https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/

  • JTam

    As I said previously the sun hats are fun and add flexibility to the kit. 

    But WGA's new STL line and the selling physical copies of the STL line changes the complexion of everything.  

    The plastic kits should maximize value and "mainstream" parts.  

    The Sun Helmets could have been an offering just like this:

     

  • Mold

    @JTam I would disagree, it was a world war afterall so ideally you would want to portray some fronts other than the west especially when it's the British. The Wolseley Helmet then opens up more opportunities for wargamers to cheaply and efficiently assemble an army for campaigns in the Mesopotamian front or East Africa. There can be an argument made for the STL line for some heads, like the Anzacs or Gurkhas, but the Woseley Helmet was such an iconic piece of headgear for multiple fronts in the First World War that I would argue is just as essential as the brodie helmet and peaked cap.  

  • Bill Thomas

    Wrong harness? No harness = scalpel 😆@JTam yes, I have "Anton" too, but now he has a Mauser 😇 

    Whatever the shortcomings of these may or may not be I'm just happy that there'll be a boxful of British Tommy goodness... my "bits box", scalpel and glue stand ready!

    I just finished putting together a sprues-worth of the Great War French, mostly straight off the sprue but with some small mods to the officer and a "close quarters specialist"... but now I need to paint them which is always my nemesis...

    “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

  • jg

    I'll admit the botched backdraps do iritate me. I mean, it's just plain wrong, an it bugs me when I see it. I'm also confusaed why there are no E tool carrers.  Those need to be on the ASAP list for digital stuff.  But as an overall sprue, I wish they had done an extra body, and cut back on the heads and rifles. You can always get extra arms and rifles from other sets, but not bodies.   Now that being said, I really do wish this had been passed by someone who really knew the gear before it went to tooling.  It's just so close... 

  • MD

    @JTam Palestine is not Africa (although there were battles defending the Suez canal in 1915-16), and it was hardly a fringe campaign. It was the primary theatre in which Turkey participated. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_and_Palestine_campaign

    About 1.2 million troops were involved, with over 200,000 casualties. 

    The Gallipoli campaign is part of that theatre (about 500,000 casualties).

    So yes - it's not on the order of the Western Front. But it's neither tiny or unimportant. "Niche of a niche" is not correct. NOTHING compares to the Western Front, but Palestine was pretty big. And was also one of the theatres where mobile warfare persisted throughout the campaign (though some areas did go to trenches for part of it), and so of special interest to wargamers - especially if they like cavalry and mounted infantry.

  • JTam

    @Mark Dewis 

    I was talking about Africa.

    Which is a niche of a niche of a niche.

    Gallipoli and surrounds is a niche of a niche.

    But back to the original question.  What do you think the ratio of gamers who play WW1 Western Front versus every other front combined is?  Twenty buyers would rather have an extra body or something they can use as opposed to chuck in the bits box for  every buyer who will actually use the sun hats.  That one person can buy sun hat heads separately.  He certainly will have to go shopping about anyway to get any opponents for his tropical Brits.

     

  • MD

    @JTam yeah, but I do not know WHY you were talking about Africa. I certainly did not bring it up and the pictures I posted were not from there (although the East African campaign is in itself a good subject for wargaming).

    In any case, that pattern of pith helmet was issue from 1899 to 1948 and the normal headwear most places British troops were actually posted between the wars. I'm pretty sure this kit is intended to see use outside of France 1914-18 (and for that matter, no Brodie Helmets until September 1915. I have no idea if pith helmets were issued in summer 1915 on the western front, but it would not surprise me).

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Sprue layout is a challenging balance act. Getting just the right amount of different parts to satisfy the biggest number of customers must be quite a headache. 

    One of Wargames Atlantics’s marketing strengths has been diversity of heads in the box. Not everyone likes every head. I am not a big fan of the gasmask heads on the Lizardman sprue for example but some like them and others love them.  I do not begrudge those people the gasmask heads and I would argue that is an even smaller niche than early 20th Century British military uniform sun helmets.

    And at this stage anyway getting correct heads is not exactly point and click. Maybe it will get better when WGA sets up retail purchase of printed STL pieces.  

    I have tried to say that I have seen a number of people in the gaming community on Lead Adventure interested in sun helmeted WW1 Brits and I have tried to back that up with evidence.

    But@Mark Dewis articulates it better than I can. 

    As for the webbing blackstraps, at least they can be concealed with the pack.

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  • AD

    @Mark Dewis I don't think that pit helmets were given to troops in summer 1915, for the same reason that the "pike" was removed by the germans from their helms, they were higher than a service cap, and surely would've given away their wearer's position in the trench. But pit helmets could be useful also for post war soldiers in the colonies, at least until the late '30s, when the uniforms were modernized.

  • Mold

    @JTam Wargaming the First World War is a niche as we both know. We don't really have any numbers on the overlap between Western Front and other fronts so we can only speculate but I can't imagine it's that drastic. Furthermore, including Woseley helmets gives wargamers that were previously confined to expensive pewter models a chance to explore fronts that were more open and free compared to the rigidness of the Western Front. I know for me personally the addition of these heads convinced me to buy more boxes than I had planned on. 

    The British fighting within the Ottoman Empire is especially popular in media. Argubably the most famous movie about the First World War, Lawrence of Arabia, doesn't focus on the Western Front but the Arab Revolt. Relatively recently Battlefield 1 focused on this theater, even releasing a whole DLC on it including the Woseley helmet, and these maps were regarded as some of the most fun and well done in the entire game. 

    Every box seems to be capped at 35 figures anyways. I can't think of another figure to add to this sprue other than an officer. The mix of advancing and standing seems to be fine. The way the sprue was designed it looks like if they removed a rifle or two, instead of a slim row of heads, then there could be another body.

  • MD

    @Alessio De Carolis yeah. It was just an idle thought. I'm pretty sure no tropical kit was issued for European use. You might get an eccentric officer - the Brits were nororious for that - or MAYBE a white officer of one of the Indian units posted to the Western Front (Sikh, Hindu, Gurkha etc). But I know I'm drawing a long bow here. Clearly the usual hat worn in Europe before the Brodie was introduced was the peaked cap, for all ranks.

  • MD

    For those that would have liked Sikh and Hindu heads, there is a problem that they did wear different style uniforms (tunics rather than jackets). Best done as their own kit, since you need different torsos AND heads.

  • PL

    Comrade Dewis, I have never seen these photos (Royal Engineers, Indian troopers with their officers) in our History books in France : very cool.

    As I don't see any NCO chevrons, a question about the two Indian soldiers in the foreground : are they officers ? Approximate date and location ?

  • MD

    @Pierre Lerdou-Udoy I was looking for Pith helmets in 1915 when i found it, but I can't seem to relocate the picture except in unreliable sites. It MIGHT have come from the Imperial War Museum, but that one can be hard to search. Wherever I found it did say France 1915. Sikh troops were serving on the Western Front as early as 1914, though.

    No Sikh officers in 1915; the British chaps with them are probably those. At best the Indian troops could be NCOs. I don't know about the rank stripe issue. 

    That building pretty much has to be Europe, though.

  • PL

    Dear Mark, thank you for your honest answer.

    As I know very little about the Indian Army in 14-18, the subject interest me a lot... You gave me a fresh track : I followed it.

    I've found the unit on the photo : 15th Ludhiana Sikh Regiment, landed in Marseilles, "acclimatized" in Orléans, then sent to "le Nord" (the North department). The photo was taken in the village of Le Sart, east of Cambrai (spring/summer 1915 ?). Engaged in september 1915 around Ypres, the regiment was later transferred to the Middle East...

    The Indian Army, since 1905, had native junior officers, called Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCO). Three ranks in the Infantry : Jemadar (2d Lt), Subadar (1st Lt) and Subadar Major (eq. Cpt, 1 per Rgt).  They wore 1 to 3 stars on their shoulder straps. They only had authority over the native troops (up to 1917, when Sandhurst took them for training).

    I think that the one with the stick is the Subadar Major, the others VCO visible (men without ammo pouches) being his deputies.

    Apparently, Sikh NCOs only wore the chevrons on the right sleeve in summer dress (tunic, to confirm).

    I also note the closed collar of the European officers... Interesting.

  • MD

    Good digging!

  • PL

    Thank you, my friend from the Antipodes...

    The VCOs wore the sword at the start of the war, which designated them as officers : we can clearly see the straps on the left side.

    The tropical light tunic is called KURTA and, according to the photos, the rank marks of the NCOs are usually only worn on the upper right arm (idem on the tropical tunic of the Gurkhas).

    To go to the front in Europe, all soldiers received the european common model of khaki/brown 1902 Pattern Service Dress (and, for white COs and native VCOs, the model with open collars). NCOs wore rank marks on both arms. That's all for me.

    Adio.

  • Mold

    @JTam Now that we have the option to buy these 3D prints physically I think this would be great for the heads, poses, and bodies that people in this discussion asked for. This could go so far as to offer specific figures, as seen in the Roman News Crier, like leaders from the war such as Tsar Nicholas II. So long as the 3D prints are offered physcially I have no problem with this option. 

  • BE

    Hey guys,
    As revealed by the news letter of this Christmas day, the british seem lacking an officer body (seing the box pciture).


    I think to use the french body officer for the purpose ...i have too much of them for the French and the uniform will fit the job.

  • jg

    NOw that I can see the figures made up, aside from the few gaffs already mentioned, the gas mask bags hang WAY TOO LOW. They are supposed to hang, and are far more confromatble, right up on the upper chest. Not down over the ammo pouches.I know its a minor thing, but it is just so frustrating to get so very close to great,only to have something like this ruin it for people who actually know what the stuff is supposed to look like.  I'm not even goign to comment on the gas mask snaps. 

  • MD

    @jon gawne looking at photos of it, there's a bit of variation. I agree that on the chest is the usual way it was worn, but I'd have thought you can shorten the straps and the hose with craft knife easily enough.

  • Christopher Tyrer

    @Mark Dewis I am in the middle of The Indian Empire at war by George Morton-Jack. In it does state that the Indian army service dress was unsuitable for the western front when they arrived in November 1914 & as winter approached they changed to the more warmer woolen ones, which I assume was Bristish Army service dress. 

  • MD

    @Christopher Tyrer useful. And it would make sense they might go back to their normal kit in the warmer months (in that photo above from the middle of 1915 they are mostly wearing the kurta tunic, which definitely was not standard Tommy Atkins issue).

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