I have started an army using the Les Grognards kit which to this point has been great. I have done a lot of conerting to make what i think is one of the more inexpensive armies. That being said I am in need of a lot of the sitting body to convert into pilots for my vehicles. I have to this point used what I have but I need a good many more. As I was pondering what to do about this problem i.e second hand market or recasting I also noticed my bits box was getting out of control. Then it hit me, I would very much like to see an "Upgrade sprue" of just bodies. No weapons or heads just bodies. I think that would sell, not only for people like me but laso guys wanting to make Kriegsman and the like. Sell 24 bodies for 20$ sell it in a bundle with the infantry kit so you use all the weapons. I think it'd sell without cutting into your sales of the main kit too much. what do you guys think, would you buy just bodies?
Bodies only sprew
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Admittedly with how the sprues currently are, separate bodies will be a huge challenge. Although I am a big fan of the idea of selling sprues entirely dedicated to giving you bodies. Since we have loads of spare heads and arms with usually no spare bodies for them.
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generally a bodies only set is more the provenance of 3D printing, since general demand would be fairly low.
for 3D printed sets though the trick is to include enough to make the cost worth it.
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@Mithril2098 I actually think the demand is greater than you think given all the times its been brought up, but it is a very left field idea and would not be good business model for anyone actually selling full kits since it would be under cutter. It should be done as a 1 item crowdfunder by some third party other than WA,etc. (you know someone like Anvil Industiers).
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@timothy lacasse best advice at this point is get a 3D printer and print out all the bodies you want, failing that just sell the bits in a lot or 2 on ebay at low but not too low starting bids (people will buy them), or turn them into fatalities (in the case of backpacks and pouchs, you can always glue them to vehicles).
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You might want to have a go at using 'blue stuff' (or 'oyumaru') molds to make green stuff/miliput duplicates of pieces you think you could make use of. Depending on the complexity of the piece you want to duplicate.
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@timothy lacasse Loathe as I am to have a bunch of arms and heads laying around that I can't use, I don't think it makes sense to make a tool, which isn't cheap, for the sole purpose of allowing people to get more models for cheaper. While It's nice to cut down on waste, plastic is [relatively] cheap, which is why you can have so many options on the one frame, unlike other materials where it is uneconomical and difficult to reliably cast a large volume of optional parts.
As said previously, 3D printing would be the way to go if you're looking for somewhere to put all of your spare parts, or to get a large volume of bodies on the table cheaper than buying a full kit and [feeling like you're] wasting part of the purchase price on bits you don't use.
The Dark Age Army Builder is probably the closest you'll get to something like this, because the clothing and weapons look close enough to a bunch of different Armies from that period that they could reasonably pass for whoever you wanted with the right paint job. Death fields, on the other hand, has very distinct uniforms; you aren't realistically going to get more than one faction from a generic body sprue.
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@Brian Van De Walker I have a 3d printer and plan on printing the one body thats available
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@Brian Van De Walker I admittedly have no idea how much tooling costs or what they might expect for profit margins. I'm sure there is good reason one one has done it before. I just figured if anyone would do it it would be WA. they seem to listen to the customer base and if this post got enough traction it might go somewhere.
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@Stephen SuttonWargames Atlantic's DAB actually just contributes to the "heads and arms" pile more to the point I am not sure why people kept backing it other than to annoy Warring States China fans like me since there are a lot of sets done by other folks that do the same thing and actually cut down on the extra heads more (200 heads, extra sheilds plus a bunch right handed weapon arms you will likely never use on a mini cause they have no mate versus whats out there already by other manufacturers, its more extras bit box bits).
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@timothy lacasse they do listen to the customer base, and as I mentioned this idea has been talked about before both here and on FB.
I don't think the tooling cost is the main issue. Last I heard (which admittedly was years ago now) tooling cost for 1 plastic frame cost around $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 in USD and I am not sure if thats for the whole set making process from start to finish or just making the mold. That said a body only kit should be a 1 frame, so the cost would be the same as any other 1 frame kit so its doable (heck you could even do it as a half frame).
That said, I think the real issue with a body only kit on the manufacturering side is it would cut down on sales of other kits since on average for kit to break even it needs to sell 2 or 3 kits per buyer. If you throw in a body only kit to that formula, there is a high possiblity most folks would just buy 1 body kit and one of whatever other kit they want to build thier army out of, so the body kit might do okay to fabulous, but at the cost of every regular set underprefoming.
If its not that then the other issue that did come up each time this has been talked about which effects both the manufacturer and the model builder is "what outfit do we do the genric bodies in?" because believe it or not "genric" either doesn't actually exist for wargame mini topics or is subject to such a long list of interpretations it may as well not exist.
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@Brian Van De Walker I saw the name of this topic and immediately assume that you had made the original post 😂
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@Big Boi not this time.
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I am a general fan of this idea. The Les Grognard's box-set is one of my faves and I intend to pick up another box soon as building and painting them was so much fun!
More spare bodies, in general, would be really helpful for kit bashing
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@Brian Van De Walker Yeah I understand the undercut of your own product. Thats probably why no one does it. I wouldn't be surprised if the body kit sold on its own, whether it would be enough to off set your losses to the sales of your other product is the real question. Anyway I'll drop it, I'm not trying to be argumentative; I am honestly just asking the question. As for the "generic" body. I very selfishly want the Les Grognard body only. I am in no way trying to serve the wider community in any way, that much I promise you. After they make the kit I want, maybe I'll consider lobbying for the greater good. "Les Grognards are the best, Anyone who says otherwise is wrong." -A scientist. I'll let that quote speak for itself.
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@timothy lacasse Well, if its just more Grognard bodies, believe it or not you can already do that more or less without getting a 3D printer yourself or using blue stuff recast mold, in two way in fact:
First option is plastic bit part re-sellers, and I know there is/was at least one on ebay selling individual official WA grognard bodies by themselves for a fairly good price, even the heavy team ones (Toil and Trouble Hobbies).
Second option while a bit more pricey is to buy a set of 3rd party heroic sculpted French great coat leg (which are common enough to elicit expletives) and then use an armored torso (even more common and yes you can even use old plastic cadian torsos).
For the Second option, currently the best stable deal in the US is probably Hoplite Miniatures' ebay store which sells Reptile Overlords French coat legs at 10 legs for $12, they have Reptile Overlords Pareto Legionnaire armored torsos that would work perfect for grogs also at $12 for 10 parts, for the same price they even have matching French style coat upper torsos as an alternative torso option if you want some unarmored light infantry to go with the grogs you have, all their orders come with bases and they are currently having a sale so everything 10 for $10.
Great coat legs are as mentioned really common so you might be able to do it even cheaper. I actually have some Maxi mini metal great coat legs I got in good sale off ebay that I have since decided to use to make some “Damned Grognards” since I also have some resin torsos also off ebay that would work great for that and not counting the arms which will mostly be WA I am pretty sure it costs me about $20 to $24 for 24 bodies (just need to sit down and do it).
Now that all said, I noticed you mentioned "setting bodies for making pilots" in the first post, for that depending on what they are driving you may not need or really want great coat bodies since tankers often dress diffrently from infantry, so if its walkers or power amor you can get away with using old GW Sentinal pilot bodies with grog heads, the only place it might be diffrent is if we are talking things like jeep type vehicles and even there you can have the sitting driver dressed diffrently from the standing gunner.
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@Brian Van De Walker This is exactly what is was looking for. Im going to print the reptilian overlord bodies. I think those will do just fine. My pilots are in open top vehicles, like jeeps and mini tanks so thier legs are exposed. Thanks for the suggestion, perfect solution to my problem. I'll just have to source sitting legs elsewhere.
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@timothy lacasse Well, if you actually have a 3D printer, then I know there are quite a few "death corps" type print files outthere and seated poses do exist.
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@Brian Van De Walker "The other issue that did come up each time this has been talked about which effects both the manufacturer and the model builder is "what outfit do we do the genric bodies in?" because believe it or not "generic" either doesn't actually exist for wargame mini topics or is subject to such a long list of interpretations it may as well not exist."
Yeah, this, to a large extent. I probably wouldn't be a customer for this sort of product, unless "generic" were something that I could find a wide variety of uses for. Admittedly, I'm probably not representative of the hobby, but I'm more flexible about the details, I think, than most wargamers: if the "generic" thing isn't EXACTLY what the customer wants - the details, right down to the buttons, aren't exactly correct - then it has a big chance of falling flat.
That is, the problem becomes an insane balancing act between being "generic" enough to be useful for enough people that it isn't economically invalidated because it's too niche, without alienating the buyers who demand the bits to be very specific to their niche: it's probably an impossible balancing act, with few compromises that could be made that would make just enough people happy to be economically viable.
So, I guess the "generic" requirements might best come down to:
- The bodies would need to be distinct enough from the mainstream products, that WGA isn't undercutting the market for them.
- The bodies would need to be vague enough to fit into a variety of eras, settings, or genres to please just enough customers, without depending too heavily on details that would disqualify them for any particular purpose. (Fantasy and Sci-fi are more forgiving than historical subjects in this respect.)
- The bodies might otherwise be something that supplements a popular product, without replacing it, by filling an unusual side-niche to the popular product: variations on poses or uniforms, for example.
With that in mind, for a starting place, I can only ask myself, what sort of "generic body" kit might WGA make, that might get me off the fence to buy it?
- No-frills nondescript robes, of the sort favored by generic "medieval fantasy" Frier Tuck monks, grim reapers, warlocks and wizards, clerics, and cultists everywhere, with or without ragged hems, rips and tears, etc. Their use in classic fantasy is a no-brainer here, as is pulp and gothic horror; sci-fi is no problem here, either. You might also get some historical gamers willing to handwave a few details to use them for Dark Ages, Medieval, or Renaissance purposes. Paint in solumn ash, brown, or black for most general purposes, or add reds, yellows, or other colours as required to fit in with the rest of the cult. Perfect for soaking up spare daggers and clubs and all of those hooded heads you've got sitting around from various medieval kits, but use your imagination: zombie heads will look fine here, and there's no reason that your cultists can't be armed with machine guns or sci-fi weapons, if your genre-of-choice is pulp horror or grimdark sci-fi.
- Non-specific Greatcoats/Trenchcoats, of the sort favored by ahistorical Trench Crusaders, noir detectives, Boris Badinoff's fellow spies and saboteurs, blade runners, old-fashioned pulp villains and vigilantes, and edgy Goth kids everywhere. Most commonly encountered in khakhi, olive drab, grey, or blue, or you can be an individual and dye it black like all the other rebels. You will probably need to supply your own fedora, slouch, or homberg hat, and your own cool handgun, before you can begin haunting the city streets by night to fight crime. Otherwise, a great option for soaking up all those handguns you aren't using on The Front.
- General-purpose military tunics over trousers tucked in jackboots, with or without pistol belts and harnesses. Arrogance in Uniform: incarnate, acceptible for military, security, or police use across the galaxy, fine for equipping a friendly Space Patrol or rebel alliance if painted in a pleasant putty-white or light grey-blue, but even better in black as the official uniform of any big-bad's goon squads and secret police. Now, bring your own caps and blasters, and repeat after me: Halt - papers, please! A great destination for any of the spare rifles, machine guns, handguns, and the like left over from your 20th-century or sci-fi projects, and they're bound to look stylishly authoritarian with any spare service caps, forage caps, campaign hats, or garrison caps.
- Simple gambesons over high boots, for when metal fantasy armor is overkill, especially ever since Game of Thrones made this combination look so cool, in classic somber blacks and browns, of course, though I'm sure they'll look great in just about any colour you like. Probably suitable enough for historical situations, but certainly useful for fantasy armies (your rangers, rogues, and the like will love them), and you might even get some mileage from them in spaaaaace! as the costume of choice for edgy Proud Warrior Races around the galaxy. Will look fine with any spare bare heads from almost any era, any loose sword arms you've been saving for a rainy day, and probably just about any iron or leather caps and any general medieval weaponry you've got around.
- Cannon Fodder Jumpsuits, of exactly the sort worn by... the Cannon Fodder. Perfecdt for soaking up those Cannon Fodder bits, of course, and pretty much an obvious choice for use with the Death Fields Upgrade Sprue or the two digital Alien Heads sets, but if you use your imagination, there's a lot more you can do with these generic boiler suits for use as space suits or blue-collar uniforms for space crewmen, flight crews, tank crews, cyberpunk factory drones, cyborgs, and more. Great for absorbing pretty much any heads, and any modern and sci-fi weaponry in your bits-bin. For a good time, arm them up with some of those spare dark-age and medieval weapons, and turn them loose in a Death Fields arena against giant spiders, dinosaurs, dire bears, giant apes, halflings, or any other rabid, vicious animals.... (Seriously, the Cannon Fodder concept probably fit the "just bodies to combine with random head-and-weapons bits" role perfectly, and as such, perhaps didn't technically need to come with arm and head bits, though I'm not complaining about them!)
- Victorian Civilian costumes, like generic waistcoats and coats for men, and long dresses for women, suitable for absorbing any revolvers, double-barrel shotguns, WWI weapons, cowboy hat heads, flat caps, and the like in the bits box, to populate wild western towns or gaunt New English American Gothic small towns of cosmic horror with. In fact, a lot of civilian subjects are maybe best handled as "army builder" body sprues like this, for arming partisans, rebels, militias, peasant conscripts, mobs, gangs, cults, and the like, now that the Pulp Survivors and Classic Fantasy villagers have provided us with so many excellent bits options to work with.
- Loose, simple shirts over trousers with sandals, the standard-issue costumes for peasants around the world for a large part of recent history. Easily suitable for fantasy and classic dark-corners-of-the-earth pulp, and perhaps with a little handwaving also anything historical from the Dark Ages up to Imperial Conquests and beyond into the 20th century, for bandits, pirates, and revolutionary militias and mobs. Great for absorbing any surplus machetes, daggers, clubs, bows-and-arrows, hatchets, and military surplus guns ranging from black-powder up to the AK-47 and RPG. White is the classic colour and pastels and other light colours will also work fine, but you're free to use your imagination here, including "black pajamas" and the like. You'll need to supply your own suitable hats, bandanas, kheffiyas, and so on, but most bare heads you have on hand will probably work fine here. Viva le Revolucion!
- Seated figures, in any popular costume/theme, suitable for filling the seats of troop transport trucks, APCs, etc. Perhaps with one arm resting comfortably in the figure's lap or by their side. Anyone who needs to seat a bunch of figures in one of these vehicles or into a tavern scene or whatever, probably has a bunch of spare heads and arms already. But seated passengers? A bit harder to come by!
Some extras I wouldn't mind seeing packaged with a "bodies-only" kit:
- Little hemispherical neck adapters for attaching the flat historical-style heads to Death Fields (and Warhammer/40K) style bodies with hollow sockets. Probably nearly nonsensical if the body kits that use the historical flat neck joins, but would save a LOT of kitbashing time and trouble if included with bodies that use the Death Fields-style ball-and-socket necks.
- Where appropriate (generally unarmored), extra capes, scarves, kerchiefs, or other "neckwear". These are always great when we get them, but there aren't many of them in normal kits, and they're in relatively short supply compared to arms and heads.
- Where appropriate (generally heavily armored), some shoulder armor/pauldroons. These rarely-supplied but simple bits come up in requests at least from time to time, and are a great way of adding some variety and drama to armored fantasy and sci-fi subjects.
But, that's just me. What would be more useful for YOUR generic body sprue needs?
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I'm gonna go against the grain here, and actually say that I think the best "generic" bodies might be ones that are really characterful rather than plain. when I think of the head bits I like and use the most, they're not the super generic ones but really interesting ones. guys with bandages, cool helmets, or interesting expressions. (they're one of the few things gw still does right!). so maybe rather than going generic, go really weird! surgical aprons could be useful, dresses, bandoliers, scarves. maybe an arctic style sprue for death fields? make it a mixed sprue for bashing together characters rather than focusing on appealing to every possible aesthetic.
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@timbus the thirteenth I'm open to that. Out of the sets for the Damned Deadth Fields faction, some of the more interesting bodies were one-offs on the Command sprue, in the form of a robed priest and a mad scientist/doctor.
I mean, give me a cross-genre bodies-only sprue with one or two dozen bodies on it, each in different non-uniform, specialist costumes of that sort, and I'm interested.
Hell, a heads-only sprue of that sort with a mix of one-off assorted headgear, masks, beard/sideburn/mustache styles, eye patches, goggles, and whatnot would find a lot of uses for me, too. I'm more interesting in things like hoods, hockey masks, bandanas, cowboy hats, fedoras, top hats, fezzes and turbans, welder's masks, carnival masks, powdered wigs, and that sort of thing, suitable for slashers, cultists, ghouls, villains, monsters, and eccentric vigilante heroes in anything from fantasy to sci-fi settings, but anything imaginative is interesting to me. Combine such heads even with bland-and-generic bodies, and you suddenly have something interesting!
That is, the bland-and-generic bodies really work best for background characters, or as a base to add weird heads and arms onto.
In the same spirit, a sprue that includes a tuxedo, mechanic's boiler suit, safari clothing, elaborate nobleman's outfit, straightjacket, cyborg torso, hunchback, and gorilla suit side-by side would never be suitable for a uniformed army, but could certainly provide some interesting one-off character models to blend into a larger mob of zombies, survivors, monsters, or whatever. Or, to serve as distinctive leaders for an otherwise uniform mob, or to serve as a one-off monster or villain.
Yes, I said gorilla suit. Put, say, a gas mask head and some spare Death Fields cybernetic arms on him, and he's a hell of a lot more interesting than your average off-the-shelf monster.... Or, use any of the heads from the Wargames Atlantic digital alien heads collection instead, or Baron's War knight's helmet....So, especially for role-playing gamers, fantasy wargamers, and the odder side of the skirmish gaming thing, I think there's something positive to be said for both the generic-and-bland side, and the weird-and-eccentric side.
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WHY
WHY WOULD YOU PUT THE IDEA OF GORILLA BODY IN MY HEAD
WHY WOULD YOU TEMPT ME WITH THIS MORE PERFECT WORLD
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