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28mm cowboys

  • jazoijuareview

    I would like to see 28mm cowboys in plastic. 

  • M

    What can WGA do that Great Escape Games' "Dead Man's Hand" plastic sets don't?

     

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  • Yronimos Whateley

    If WGA's other sets are anything to go by, you can start with a better price-per-mini:  a box of GEG's Gunslingers contains only ten figures, while WGA's Survivors and Agents sets, with a similar selection of bits per frame, each contain 24 figures.  Where I'm at, GEG's gunslings cost more per box to import.  WGA's Partisans I contains 32 figures - over three times as many as GEG's gunslingers!  The Partisans frames may have fewer bits per frame, but it's still a a similar enough subject to demonstrate what WGA might be able to do better, even with a half-frame's worth of bits, though I think the Survivors and Agents are probably a better approach for a gunslinger set.

    WGA's sculpting is typically more naturalistic.  I can live with GEG's shorter, pudgier, more cartoonish "heroic" style (it's comparable to Frostgrave, Stargrave, and Oathmark sculpting), and even freely mix many bits between the two styles, but I slightly prefer WGA's if give a choice.

    Or, I'd take both at the same time - the more the merrier.  After all, what can WGA's Goblins, Skeletons, Lizard Men, and the like do that hasn't already been done by other manufacturers?  I don't mind having the choice and the variety, as long as a profitable enough market for it is there to keep everyone in business.

    Speaking of WGA's lizard men, one thing that set did that, say, Warhammer or Frostgrave lizard men don't was include some bits like "bolters" and gas masks that were suitable for Death Fields and other sci-fi settings (VSF and 40K, for a couple examples.)  If WGA were inclined to do so, they might do something similar with a gunslinger set, by including cowboy heads with gas masks, goggles, and souped-up steampunk guns and gizmos, spellbooks and staves, and the like, perhaps as an add-in frame similar to the frame of guns included in the male survivors box, only sci-fi/fantasy/horror themed for steampunk/VSF and Weird Western subject matter (I'd gladly buy extra Weird Western accessory sprues of this sort separately to use on the GEG's figures, WGA's partisans, WWI figures for The Last War and Trench Crusade, etc.!)  A plain and simple western gunslinger set is good, one useful across genres is even better.

    For a more streamlined approach, WGA's agents have six figures per frame, four male and two female; mixing male and female gunslingers on the same frame is one possible way that WGA might do things differently from GEG; whether or not this is better might depend a lot on how many female gunslingers one is likely want or need compared to male gunslingers; this approach does come at a bit of a disadvantage in the variety of bits that might be included on the frame, as seen with the Agents, which handled the compromise by focusing on handguns and machine pistols rather than including a vareity of rifles and shotguns.  This works well enough for gunslingers, who you'd expect to mostly be armed with revolvers and derringers anyway.  (Want shotguns?  There's a bunch included in the survivors kits, along with other useful kitbashing goodies.)

     

    That's a couple ways I can think of that WGA might do things differently from GEG, with the potential to improve on the subject.  I'm sure other gamers can think of their own ideas for improvements that WGA can bring in trems of things that might be included in such a kit that GEG didn't think of, different design decisions, and so on.  What might YOU want to see in a Wild West set that GEG hasn't already done, or tht could be done better than GEG's implementation? 

     

  • BV

    @Mithril2098 Well First they are too focused on the "western film" options for firearms as they are missing pepperbox pistols, derringers pistols, several types of rifles, etc., they have no coonskin hat, no sombrero, no poncho and no lasso too.  

    @Yronimos Whateley Hmm, I would argue the Lizardmen and spiders WA did where extremely daring actually in the gun option department, that said gunfighters/cowboys are technically a historical option and yes another box of cowpokes should cost less then the "Deadman's Hands" ones do and probably provide enough to make 2 crews/gangs in the game they are trying sell with them, just saying.

    And the "Deadman's Hands" sets are missing things (as mentioned pepperbox pistols and derringers are a historical must for the wildwest that is MIA, there are a couple of other firearms that would be good to see as well, oh and there isn't enough knives and melee options for barroom brawls😄).

    I disagree about mixing the males and females on the same sprue, I think thats mistake if your going to bother doing women for this time frame or any setting really. it should be a seperate set as both male and female sets should double for townfolk npcs aswell if possible, but the women for sure should (and by keeping them seperate there is more room to consider fun VSF options like gasmasks). It might be a good idea to do rider legs and torsos on the each sprue though.

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  • timbus the thirteenth

    My main issue is that cowboys don't feel like something you'd need to buy in bulk. GEG being focused on bits and details is probably a better idea than having lots of bodies. ~20 models would be nice, especially if there's an alternative build. If they do add in a couple extra setting bits, I know there's a couple popular weird west games that might have a need for skulls, tomes, or ritual knives.

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  • BV

    @timbus the thirteenth Hmm, I don't know I can see it getting bulk Historical plastic and selling quite well for a couple of diffrent things and it likely wouldn't hurt the "fun bits" to much if you don't go the "identical weapons and heads options" route which you really shouldn't anyways for this. Like I could see Perry's  for example doing a 35-40 figure box of cowboys the same height as thier Zulu war British with a mix of weapons and it doing great, though to be honest a good set of Boers would accomplish the same thing for the most part and likely better for bulk needs, still bulk cowboys might be fun for the range wars (or to fight the British Americian war 1867 if nothing else🤣).

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  • M

    I don't see cowboys selling in large bulk.. mainly because american west centric gaming with cowboys/gunfighters tends towards small skirmish level rules.

    Large games in the genre/setting tend to be US Cavalry/Buffalo Soldiers vs Native American tribes, with few to no cowboys/gunfighters involved.

    So cowboy/gunfighter sets focusing more on customization options instead of figure count makes a lot of sense, you're mostly looking to make unique characters for skirmish games. 

    For large battles in the genre you'd want want sets of native americans, US cavalry and infantry soldiers, and maybe a set of militia/civilian posse figures. The latter of which you would probably want to make compatible with the cowboy/gunfighters parts, for extra weapons variety.

     

    My own suggestion, is instead of competing with GEG's plastic sets.. do something they haven't touched yet. Vaqueros, the mexican equivalent of american cowboys. they're similar, but would have a different enough style they aren't competing directly, but could still be in demand for variety in those skirmish games. Especially since there are a lot of places in the "wild west" both the real world and in the fictional version of media, where the mexican cowboys and ranchers stuck around well after the regions became part of the USA, and the american ranchers and cowboys moved in.

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  • Yronimos Whateley
    • In my book, a ~20-24 figure box, like the Survivors (24), Agents (24), and Operators (20) is going to be fine, even for skirmish games:  that's enough figures for two opposing gangs of gunslingers, with extras for alternate characters, bystanders, and so on.  MY preference would be for separate male and female gunslingers kits, but in both the number of figures, and whether or not they are mixed or kept separate, there's more to the market than just me.
    • Why limit the subject matter to existing skirmish rules sets, when the figures could be used in pretty much any game, including Death Fields, where larger numbers are supported by default?  Skirmish gaming and RPGs might well be the primary market for this sort of subject now, but why enforce that existing limitation in scope, just because that's what has "always" been done?  There are at least cinematic precedents for larger-scale "cowboys and injuns" battles, shootouts between larger gangs and local ad-hoc militias, and that sort of thing, if not historical ones (and I bet there are plenty of historical ones, through I don't think historical wargamers are going to care very much - this is more likely to be a pulp/"fantasy" gaming niche.)  A colourful Death Fields team could be produced from one or more boxes of 24 figures whether they include sci-fi bits or not, and so on.
    • At least on paper, there's no reason that a box of 20, 24, or more gunslingers should give any buyers "the ick", any more so than the Partisans or Survivors sets.  Of course, gamers ARE irrational and are driven by all sorts of irrational factors, but most of the time, these are not universal factors - it's a "you can't please everyone" sort of situation.  Do we have any real reason to believe that any significant part of the consumer base will refuse to buy a box that contains more than, what, GEG's 10 figures?
    • For significantly more than 20-24 figures, we're probably straying further into Army Builder territory, where squeezing ~48 figures into a box is the goal, at the cost of variety in weapons optons, and a relative simplicity in posing.  On paper, the cowboy subject matter is a bit more individualistic than an army builder lends itself to, and an approximately "cowboy"-themed army builder is probably better left to its own discussion, but I can see an argument to be made for such a thing (the classic "wild west" period overlaps the American Civil War, and there are at least a couple ACW kits out there that are effectively "cowboy army builders" in everything but name:  if I needed a "cowboy army builder" right now, a bulk ACW set might be where I'd go to first!)

    @Brian Van De Walker  

    Well First they are too focused on the "western film" options for firearms as they are missing pepperbox pistols, derringers pistols, several types of rifles, etc., they have no coonskin hat, no sombrero, no poncho and no lasso too... the "Deadman's Hands" sets are missing things (as mentioned pepperbox pistols and derringers are a historical must for the wildwest that is MIA, there are a couple of other firearms that would be good to see as well, oh and there isn't enough knives and melee options for barroom brawls😄).

    To be fair, the "wild west" thing as most people imagine it IS cinematic, and has rested pretty firmly on the fantasy side of a fantasy-historical spectrum since the Victorian Era in the way the old dime novels and penny dreadfuls sensationalized the subject, and shares a similar gaming territory with pirates, gangsters, and gladiators in that respect, and film and TV only add to that effect:  might as well lean into the cinematic/"fantasy" aspect as much as the medium will allow.

    But, that is exactly where GEG's set could stand to be improved on.  Things like panchos, 'coon-skin caps, sombreros, etc. would do exactly that:  they're exactly the sort of cinematic options that the GEG sets failed to include the first time around.  I'd much rather see a WGA kit include these sorts of options, that variety alone would be an improvement over GEG's offering! 

    Now, I did notice when looking over GEG's sets the other day that GEG is releasing some new, mounted gunslinger sets that mostly include bits corresponding to their original, unmounted gunslingerrs, so that modelers can make mounted and dismounted versions of the same characters, but the mounted sets actually include lassos that the original sets didn't - good job on adding those, GEG!

    But, it would have been nice to have seen those lassos included in the original set, along with melee options like the iconic bowie knife (I get the impression from what I've heard about the bowie knife that knife fights might have been more common than gunfights, historically, and even cinematically, a big, mean-looking knife can really steal a scene!)  


    John Wayne as Davy Crockett in 'The Alamo", admiring a Bowie knife.

    That cinematic angle is also, I think, going to probably drive the fortune of any western/cowboy/gunslinger set, regarding subjects like the vaqueros:  most people would, I think, be expecting sculpts that are pretty close to what you'd expect to see from John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Clayton Moore, Roy Rogers, Gary Cooper, Henry Fonda, Lee Van Cleefe, Charles Bronson, Lee Marvin, Chuck Connors, and so on.  I'm all for something weird for weird's sake, but if you stray very far from traditional "Marlboro Man" territory, I expect it becomes an increasingly hard sell. 

    I'd be happy to be proven wrong, if there were some unsuspected demand for something a bit more eclectic than traditional Hollywood cowboy fare, but I'm skeptical.

    (And, for whatever it's worth, TVTropes' western page spends a little time describing some "hybrid western" material for other eclectic possibibilities - I found the reference to "Polish Wilcze Echa (set immediately after World War II with looters and guerillas instead of bandits" particularly intriguing!  It's worth adding that the Mad Max movies were essentially post-apocalyptic westerns, exchanging six-guns and horses for souped-up cars, while sci-fi "space opera" shows like Star Trek and Firefly/Serenety were expressly modeled on westerns... it's a surprisingly adaptible genre, and I'm all for doing something weird, but it seems like weird is a tough sell for most gamers!)

    Whatever.  My own takes:

    • About 20-24 figures on full frames seems like the sweet spot for these sorts of sets - the male survivors set seems like a perfect template to me:  four frames of six bodies and heads with basic arm/weapon options, plus a couple half-frames of rifles, shotguns and other bits.
    • I would support any sci-fi/fantasy bits that could be included in such a kit, but only where there's room after squeezing in as many western bits as possible - I'd rather see a separate conversion bits sprue, than trying to fit this sort of thing in at the expense of regular western bits.
    • Ideally, there would be separate male and female kits, but the Agents set seemed to handle both in the same kit well enough, and I can see it working for a set that focuses on six-guns for weapons options, and leaves the rest to kitbashing.  The female gunslingers might be the one set in this range that one might fairly say that GEG has covered as well as it needs to be covered:  if any western set is unnecessary, it might be female gunslingers and/or civilians.  I'm all for it, and it suits the "fantasy" nature of the genre (the female gunslinger thing is at least as old as Annie Oakley), and it looks from where I'm sitting like the female survivors and partisans are likely to set a precedent for success of a set like this, but I get it if there isn't much demand for a box of 20 or more female gunslingers.
    • I think cinematic/"fantasy" Hollywood style "cowboys" is probably the best chance for success, and it seems like there's room for both WGA and GEG to cover this theme at the same time - if anything, WGA seems likely to do it better, if the Survivors sets are any indication.
    • A set like this thrives on individual characters, and can only benefit from inclusion of weapon and head options that would be out of place in a more uniform army, or would otherwise be an odd choice in any other set, and that includes derringers/pepperboxes, ponchos, eccentric headgear options beyond generic cowboy hats (that 'coon-skin cap, top hat, derby, gambler hats, bandana and bag face masks for bandits), melee and imrovised weapons like knives and bottles, sticks of dynamite, oil lanterns, etc.
    • A set like this should probably try to make some concession to historical gamers, but I think historical gamers might be better served by an ACW "army builder" or Boer War set, which can by default be multipurposed into a "fantasy" westren setting without any significant modifications, beyond knocking off a few bayonets and handwaving some mess kits and blankets or whatever.
    • Speaking of that 'coon-skin cap, seems like it would look most at home on a body that is basically dressed as a woodlands or plains tribesman - buckskin shirt and trousers and mocassins, etc.  Is it better to include the cap in the "cowboy" set, or in native tribesman sets, with the rest of the appropriate costume?  Either is fine with me, why not include one different sculpt in each set with room for it?  Anyway, it sounds like a nice bit either way - perfect for frontiersman guides and scouts, eccentric prospectors, and more....  Either way, a box of male "cowboy" types, and a box of generic male native tribesman, either woodlands or plains - or preferably one of each - are kind of the hardworking backbone for a western setting, pretty much anything else is gravy....

     

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  • BV

    @Mithril2098 Umm, Bro you just gave a darn good reason to do an Afghan style bulk cowboy/gunfighter set with a mix of rifles and hand guns.  why bother with a seperate "civilian militia/posse" for the Wild West and later Indian wars if there is a need for such a set (which now that I think about it there might be a real need😅)  since historically they should be armed and dressed pretty much the exact same way as a gunfighter set (we aren't talking seperate countries or diffrent timeframes with a diffrent group of suppliers like the boers or Aussies, we are talking armed civilians in the USA in the later half of the 19th century).

    Like the only real arguement this makes is that the horse riders should be a seperate set. 

    My own suggestion, is instead of competing with GEG's plastic sets.. do something they haven't touched yet. Vaqueros, the mexican equivalent of american cowboys. they're similar, but would have a different enough style they aren't competing directly, but could still be in demand for variety in those skirmish games. Especially since there are a lot of places in the "wild west" both the real world and in the fictional version of media, where the mexican cowboys and ranchers stuck around well after the regions became part of the USA, and the american ranchers and cowboys moved in.

    Well the issue with that is that I don't think there was really much diffrence between them and Merician Cowboys, except maybe thier hats where bigger on a good day.  I think I have even heard some experts say we Americians copied the cowboy look off the Mexician Vaqueros.

    @Yronimos Whateley 

    But, it would have been nice to have seen those lassos included in the original set, along with melee options like the iconic bowie knife (I get the impression from what I've heard about the bowie knife that knife fights might have been more common than gunfights, historically, and even cinematically, a big, mean-looking knife can really steal a scene!)  

    I am pretty sure knife violance is generally more common currently in the USA than gun violance and always has been😆 (they just don't reported on it as much in the US news because its not a political talking point here). In the very early19th though it would have been a "duh!" since the average civilian was likely still armed with muzzle loader guns at most which aren't real effective sidearms (good for  hunting and fighting from afar, not for brawling).    

    You know after hearing that a lasso was in the rider box, I feel I was a tad too harsh on the GEG plastic set (you don't need the lasso everywhere and cavalry box is the right place for it).

    To be fair, the "wild west" thing as most people imagine it IS cinematic, and has rested pretty firmly on the fantasy side of a fantasy-historical spectrum since the Victorian Era in the way the old dime novels and penny dreadfuls sensationalized the subject, and shares a similar gaming territory with pirates, gangsters, and gladiators in that respect, and film and TV only add to that effect:  might as well lean into the cinematic/"fantasy" aspect as much as the medium will allow.

     

    Maybe but thats all the more reason they should have things like derringers and pepperbox pistols, it makes it useful for things like  steampunk, plus both are just cool guns. likewise from a historical veiw the pepper box pistols were the poor man's colt pistol, so they where pretty dang common.

    Also guys the WA Afghan infantry set, at forty figures on one type of half frame sprue has MORE than enough diffrent "fun bits" like heads and weapons simply by being a historical scale one part body set thats  not repeating headswaps and weapons on the sprue (which is  the way a non-SciFi armed civilian set should be done anyways). The GEG sets seem to have roughly the same number of parts pre-sprue as the Afgahns, which makes sense as they  are trying to be dynamic with 2 part bodies (and even a few 2 part weapons) and they have things that would have been better served elsewhere (like the cactus  and bufflo skull that would have worked better on a terrian sprue), all done in a chunky space wasting cinematic/heroic scale sculpting style. 

     

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  • timbus the thirteenth

    @Yronimos Whateley If you go a lot further south, to a more esoteric historical area, you'll find argentinian gaucho. Basically an offshoot of cowboys, but with a couple interesting quirks. Namely, they would (and still do!) carry around bigass knives rather than guns, which have all kinds of interesting culture surrounding them. Really neat stuff! Anyhow, the tl;dr is that if cowboys don't get knives I riot.

    I'm also not sure that 'generic' native cultures based on movies would go over particularly well in today's world, or at least that might be a topic WGA would want to dodge. At the very least pick a particular culture to base them on (warriors of the Iroquois confederacy are particularly iconic and badass!). Imo, throwing in some more esoteric historical sources can add a lot more oomph to a mostly fantasy kit.

    An Illustrated Guide to Native American Tribes - Osprey1,500 × 2,045

    Gaucho - Wikipedia2,289 × 4,303

    ORIGINAL VINTAGE ARGENTINIAN GAUCHO KNIFE AND SHEATH MADE BY JUCA | eBay1,200 × 900

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  • BV

    @timbus the thirteenth Actually, making more correct native cultures I think maybe a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" issue at worst  to a "either way is good" if we are talking about trying to avoid offending people, since its debatable weather its important or not to the tribes and in what way (like I would be unsurprised if its been a long ongoing arguement among them).

    Oddly enough while a genric warband set might offend some of the College educated Amerindians*, given comments/speachs I have heard and  read from other Amerindians with statments like "We are Injuins cuase No whiteman yelled in terror "the native Americians are coming!"", it might be more of a "meh" to a "Oh, cool!" over all with them since they seem kinda divided on genric depicitons if they even notice, and in this case there is a work around (renegade warparties where a thing put that on the box and the tribes will likely leave it alone). 

    Part of this might be that culturally while they have pride in thier history the native tribes in the USA at least seem to not want to share too much of thier cultural tradtions with outsiders, on the other hand there are quite a few among the tribes trying to archive and share as much as they can with premission from the elders, etc. BTW this is the minor issue with historically accurate tribal boxes, it might actually be more offensive without premissions from the tribes in question which might be complex to get, but at the same time if WA picks a particular conflict and does a fair depiction I get the feeling the grumbling from the tribes would be minor.

    *TBH I think the people most outspokenly offended if a genric warparty box is done would be white activists looking for things to be offended by. I think a better arguement to do specific tribes is its a good time for them and they would be better sets over a 'generic' native set for things like tribal wars and such.

     

  • BV

    @timbus the thirteenth in any case, yeah  a cowboy/gunfighter set should have big knives where ever they are. With argentinian gauchos I would want Bolas the throwing weapon.

  • timbus the thirteenth

    @Brian Van De Walker Yeah, I don't disagree. This is one of those topics that's really weird because most of the conversation around it comes from white people. If it were up to me, I'd avoid the whole can of worms entirely. But WGA has shown a tendency towards trying to maintain historical accuracy without necessarily staying away from tangled topics, which I want to respect. (hell, one of their most popular lines is space nazis!). I dunno, I'm not really an expert on these topics and I don't this is the place to argue about it. That said, I trust WGA to do a good job after their work on the Aztecs.

    That said, I'm being completely genuine about thinking the Iroquois look fucking badass, much cooler than the generic 'movie villian' natives, which are mostly there to look stupid and savage so the heroes can look cool. "Historical fantasy" kits look a lot better when they mix in historical influences. (Here's where I'd insert a ten paragraph rant about how modern fantasy pauldrons make me want to blow my head off). Also, while I'm no historical expert, I bet they'd work well for a variety of woodland nations and tribes, including for the French and Indian war. The Iroquois were a confederacy of several tribes, including the famous Mohicans, the last of which is a well known topic! I think it would be a better starting point for a kit that just 'indians'.

    And yes, some bolas would go hard. I think gauchos would be better as a digital kit, but if they ever come into existence, I'd need at least two full sprues of beef jerky for historical accuracy.

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  • BV

    @timbus the thirteenth To be honest the number of films I have seen where the Amerindians are "villains" as opposed to "tragically bad communicators who get the short end of the stick" is kind of slim to "We sure that was ever thing?" territory (like are we counting those 5 minutes in “Back to Future 3” that aren’t even regionally accurate😅), then again I am a 90's kid and most of said films where in color so...🤣

    I really think for Wild West Amerindians they should stick to plains tribe influences of the in the mid to late 19th century or something more solid like the Tribal Alliance at Bull Run,  the Iroquois are from the East coast and the FIW was is in previous century (like it’s a whole other wargame topic from the wild west).

     

  • timbus the thirteenth

    yeah, my knowledge of american colonialization wars mostly starts and ends at "it was bad", so i kinda forgot the average iroquois would be dead or on the wrong side of the continent. with regards to movies though, i'm a sucker for the classics. sometimes you get a 10/10 masterpiece, other times you get blasted with several hours of blackface, bad accents, and justifications for manifest destiny, none of which i think WGA are fans of.

  • M

    @Brian Van De Walker speaking as someone who has both researched westerns and the west as a hobby, and someone who has a grandfather who has watched almost nothing but westerns for the last 6 years, pretty much every waking day..

    "indians as outright villains" was super common until the mid 60's. at which point film makers started to add more nuance to their films regarding native americans. note that this seems to have been in response to the success of the native American Rights movement of the late 60's, which brought the inequal status of native americans to prominance in the public eye and eventually won native americans equal rights by law in 1968. though actual equal rights de jour (by way of removing old discriminatory laws and such) wouldn't be acheived until the 80's. the 1980's onward tended to take a much more sympathetic portrayal of the native americans, resulting in the 'bad communications/culture clash' stuff being prominant. you can see similar trends in portrayals of hispanic and Black charachters as well, with them usually being relegated to more servile roles (or in the case of mexicans, bandits/antagonists) until the civil rights movement, after which you saw a gradual shift to more nuanced portrayals and by the late 80's onwards, increasing use as protagonists and even primary characters.

    as far as things like derringers, pepperbox pistols, racoonskin caps.. most of those aren't "cowboy" or "gunfighter" (two catagories which overlap heavily in both western historical and wild west media, in terms of outfits and equipment)

    pepperboxes were old fashuioned muzzle loading guns which largely vanished once proper revolvers showed up, and were almost universally reviled because of their unreliability and fairly weak projectiles. so including them seems unlikely.

    derringers were holdout guns, meant to fit into a pocket. they weren't usually the main weapon of anybody, and since they fired such small cartridges, they weren't much use in any actual fights. usually the people who carried them were 'city' people like bankers, rich travellers, gamblers, priests, and so on. people who wanted the reassurance of a gun, without wearing an obvious weapon like a revolver, which might effect the way people veiwed them. (indeed most users of derringers were women, who wanted the ability to protect themselves but usually couldn't legally carry a more powerful weapon. one of the reasons that derringers had the nickname 'purse guns') most cowboys and gunslingers wouldn't have carried them, and the few who did probably wouldn't use it unless they had no other option. so i'm not sure including a hand holding one would fit into a cowboys/gunfighters themed set. but they would fit well into a "townsfolk" set.

    as far as coonskin caps go.. those existed, but they generally weren't cowboy/gunfighter wear. they tended to be worn by trappers and mountain men, alongside other such homemade leather clothing such men tended to wear while working in the remote bits of the land. such men weren't uncommonly seen in the frontier, though they'd started to decline by the era of the 'wild west' proper (which is generally post 1850's in its aesthetics) but they still existed in some areas that were less settled. indeed quite a few of the hired scouts used by the army during the conflicts with the various plains and southerwestern tribes were such people, since they had personal experiance with the region and the tribes thearmy was facing. so coonskin caps probably wouldn't fit into a cowboy/gunfighter set.. but would fit in well with a 'mountain man' set

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  • BV

    @Mithril2098 No they should both be included.

    The Pepperbox pistols (as in there where many variants) where the poor man's revolver for a good chunk of the 19th century, they were all breachloader percrussion by the civilwar (I have seen them), the daisy chain effect was complianed about but it also uped the stopping power by shooting all the ammo at once, most pioneers and cowboys liked them just fine particularly for small game hunting (guns where not always used on people), and to my knowledge they didn't really "vanish" till the 1890's. (Its what someone forced into a gunfight for the first time would bring).

    As to the derrianger, its the classic gambler gun in films as you pointed out and gamblers are one of the gunfighter archtypes, there were also larger calabier varaints that line up with one of the two main schools of gunfighting and I am pretty sure one of the last gunfights had one of those. (Also this is the first I have heard of women being legally forced to carry smaller caliber and it sounds like uninforced nonsense if we are talking the real west, maybe just NY)

    Lastly there was a lot of Gunfighters and not all where gunfighters first and some of them had coonskin hats and its better to have one of those than 5 identically headswaps with the same hat.

  • timbus the thirteenth

    I'm with brian on this one, derringers feel pretty necessary for a wild west kit (though i don't appreciate the jab at my homeland!). even if they were only for "civilians", I bet a lot of people would want to use this kit to build civilians anyhow.

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