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What plastic ancients miniatures we need?

  • KS

    It's seems that main focus of WA is XIX century and further - to the era of Death Fields. Which is pity, while there are lot of miniatures aren't produced in plastic - or hardly available. The reason of starting this topic is to ask all of you: what miniatures you need in your ancient games and are hard to buy.

    My types:

    - small artillery - all the scorpions, onagers, ballistae

    - civilian villagers (there are lot of city civilians for Gangs of Rome. But not enough farmers, shepherds, hunters, fishers, houswives and childrens)

    - small and larger ancient boats. It would be great to play a naval battle with use of triremes

    - wild and domesticated animals 

     

     

  • Grumpy Gnome

    I thought warlord games did a box set of plastic artillery but I may be wrong.

    Civilians of any era are good in my opinion.

    Boats and ships of all eras are of interest to me but not sure how WA feels about getting into scale model vehicles. Smaller rowboats and dingys are pretty well covered. Bit getting bigger boats and ships in the proper scale can be challenging.   For galleys I think the competition would be MDF. I am pretty sure there are some correct scale MDF galleys out there already. Sarissa perhaps?

    Warlord Games has a domestic animals set in plastic. Reaper does several types of wild animals. I am not sure what still needs to be covered but in principle I am all for helping to enrich the gaming table with cool bits.

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  • david phillips

    one might consider some more medival sets maybe do china with the earliest forms of gunpowder weapons

  • Rob Grayston

    What about platic Persian horse archers? I think they'd be pretty useful! Then you just need some Cataphracts and hey, presto you're ready to face off against Alexander or try to conquer Greece! 

  • E

    I've had trouble finding unmounted armored goth nobles. I also haven't found any imperial roman plastics in my many hours of searching, oddly enough.

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Victrix has a few new Persian infantry and cavalry sets. But variety is the spice of life. 

    Both Victrix and Warlord Games make Imperial Romans in plastic. The Warlord Games stuff is a bit dated but the Victrix stuff is pretty good.

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

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  • VC

    Honestly, any sort of "generic" bronze age/early iron age near eastern peasants would nice, or just perhaps a "female civillians kit" of 30-40 figures would be perfect for the DnD campaigns I run, as you can convert female civs quite nicely into anything really.

    That and the only affordable female troop choice is Frostgrave female warriors and those aren't the best in all fairness, the faces are wierd fortunately I was building a fantasy band of animal folks using Sally4th conversions.

  • BVD

    @Oren Tucker 

     If we are talking useful sort of "generic", something like the old Wargames factory style Numidian tunic bodies for both men and women would be the answer for that, probably as separate partisan sets with weapons for making rebelling slaves/generic skirmishers and a few useful bits for making markers for things like captives/slaves and civilian NPCs.  They work for a lot of stuff in the ancient world and work great for fantasy and Sci-Fi as well.

    Unlike Grumpy Gnome and the rest of you I don't really think civilians as just civilians will be a big enough seller in the war gaming market to justify hard plastic (especially sets of 20 to 30) for every era even if we throw in RPG players, since most of WA's costumers who ask for them don't even seem to want them for that just judging by how "conversion" and "convert" is often in the same sentence and main focus whenever they are brought up (though it could be a different story if WA was marketing its kits  to parents of students looking for diorama projects for homework assignments).

    Plus a lot of ancient and dark age warriors were civilian levies with no real outfit changes and in most real war situations unarmed civilians would likely either be running for their lives, hiding, or being rounded up if they are not becoming war crime victims or had already vacated the area with what they could carry.

    Meaning all you really need to cover them at most that would probably actually sell would be a pair or two of arms with no weapons and an un-helmeted head in every unarmored set with maybe causality markers. For example the 2 unarmored Persian bodies WA has already done could easily work as male civilians in a couple different poses simply by clipping the weapons off and the Irish could probably be made into almost a whole village scene minus women.

     

  • BVD

    @Estoc

    By Imperial Romans what exactly do you mean? I ask because Early and late Imperial Romans are covered in plastic by a couple of different companies.

    Also not to be neat picky wouldn’t Goth cavalry and romans be more of a Decline and Fall thing?

     

  • BVD

    I think the big needs are Egyptians, Chariots,  East Indians and if we are counting them in the First Empires range Warring States Chinese, and 2 of those are already on the drawing board and one is on the release schedule. Maybe Babylonians, Sea people and/or Akkadians since this last one is mentioned in the line name.

  • E

    @Brian Van De Walker 

    Oh yeah, the goths would be decline and fall. By Imperial Romans, I mean in-between the republic and late romans. Wargames Foundry has that era listed as imperial, so I assumed it was a common term, but maybe not. Wargames Foundry describes it as "In the 200 years between the reforms of Augustus and the rise of Septimius Severus..."

  • GradientPhil

    Asyrians and Babylonians and any of their enemies like Hittites, Kushites, Scythians.

    The Trojan Wars.

  • u

    I certainly agree with Karol Siadul  about the need for

    small artillery - all the scorpions, onagers, ballistae

    Warlord do a plastic Scorpion, but I am not sure about sources of any other artillery.
    I am after artillery for Oathmark* specifically and would probably crew them with figures from existing ranges.

    * I know that generally Oathmark looks more Dark Ages than Ancients but it is fantasy.

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Having just checked, Warlord has Onagers and Ballistas for the Romans but in metal. Seems only their Scorpions are in metal and plastic so far.

    Zvezda make 1/72 plastic seige engines that can work, although you might find them a bit on the smaller side.

    Reaper has some in the Bones 5 KS, not sure when they will get to retail. 

    Zombicide Black Plague medieval siege engines are available in plastic but tend to be pricey.

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

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  • E

    Some Living Adverseries for the persains would be nice.

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  • BVD

    @Estoc

    The  New kingdom Egyptians WA previewed awhile back would likely work for that as well as the Greeks WA already advertised on FB a few times (there is a quite a few kits of Greeks suited for that on the market already though so I am not really interested in them, but that’s me) and the Scythian kits RGD is doing (though they may be a bit tall at 32mm).

    The Warring States Chinese might also work though thats up for debate on the timeing more than anything else (Persia was a really big Empire).

    Ancient East Indians would also likely be good as opponents for the Persians.

    Babylonians would really work though.

    Oh, and given the hats you can make some of them Medes already and I believe they fought and then joined Persia.

    Ancient Arabs would work too but I am not sure if that is the wisest place to start with Arabs.  

     

     

  • E

    @Brian Van De Walker

    I didn't see that they had greeks planned. thanks. 

  • JD

    Egyptians get my vote!

  • Miyuso

    Something riding Camels

  • CH

    Bronze Age/Trojan War -- Glad to see New Kingdom Egyptians in the works, but I'm hoping WA also rounds out the rest of the field with Mycenaeans, Trojans, Babylonnians, Hittites, Mitanni, Luwians, Canaanites, and the Sea Peoples, and maybe even a generic Northern-European Bronze Age set. 

  • SS

    For the New KIngdom Egypt, the logical Range expansions for Enemies would be Hittites, then followed by Sea People (which also can act as mercenaries).

    Arzawa States (Troy) and Mycenians would also be nice Bronze Age Ranges.

    Arzawa States / Sea People could work as a combined Range - Horned Helmets (like some of the SP used) were also common in the Western Anatolian Arzawa States.

  • TM

    I can see a lot of spare space when it comes to early empires in Bronze Era, but there are also some hellenistic period units which would be great to have.

    The Thureophoroi set is coming - I hope this year - but what about mercenary light infantry for example from Crete or Rhodes?

    Unarmoured and lightly armoured (linen armour) bodies, a choice of bareheaded, helmeted or heads with hats and we could have a nice set for Cretan archers and peltasts as well as Rhodian slingers.
    EDIT I've just realised that the set could be also pretty easy to design so Jewish mercenaries from that period (who were very important) are covered. That could be useful for forces of the Maccabean Revolt as well.
    Just call it Hellenistic Mercenary Light Infantry and it should be fine.


    Another idea is the Illyrians.

    Pretty interesting choice of possible units, but basic "many options in one set" box (spears, bows, javelins, slings etc) would be enough to have and if mixed with the coming Thureophoroi could allow other options for this faction.
    Frankly the most important feature would be the heads with plumed helmets.
     

  • M

    @Miyuso even though camel domestication doesn't appear to have occured till ~1000 BCE, and almost no one would actually ride them into combat till the 2nd century CE?

    From all the surviving sources, camelry usually fought as dismounted skirmishers, with the camel's used for rapid strategic movements. You didn't see systematic mounted combat with them in the sources till the 2nd century. When we start seeing mounted archers, and the occasional armored mounted lancers.

  • SS

    Hittites, Assyrians, Elamites get my vote. Scythians too. Been listening to Hardcore History podcast and want to do these armies. 

  • JTam

    Would like to see the "armor" of the ancient world - Chariots and Elephants.

  • IG

    Seleucid companion and cataphractoi extra heavy cavalry would be very welcome. I would suggest they would sell well as they could just be appended to the several existing successor/ macedonian ranges out there and provide another opponent for the ever popular mid republican ' polybian' Romans.

  • BS Kitbasher

    There are already tons of Greek/Hellenistic miniatures in plastic on the market from Victrix, Immortal, Wargames Factory, and Warlord.  If WGA has to enter the market, I hope they give us something that at least Victrix hasn't already done.

  • D

    I'd like to see Assyrian infantry*, and some generic Mesopotamian infantry and civilians. If some of the weapons and armor pieces can be made cross-compativle with the skeleton set, even better.

    *More specifically, the neo-Assyrian empire, the ones that gave Assyria a fearsome military reputation

  • EP

    parthians in plastic would be new! I second the idea of plastic artillery, there is a desperateneed for it

  • GB

    Assyrians would be great, as would Indians.  

     

  • Axel Schudak

    @david phillips 

    >do china with the earliest forms of gunpowder weapons

    That would still be medieval, probably the Song, around a thousand years after the Fall of Alexander. Not that I am against this, but its probably not a set in THIS forums range. Personally I would root for a set covering the Ming, but these would go either into the Renaissance range or into a still to create category for warfare in eastern Asia.

  • Axel Schudak

    I would love a set that complements the existing Victrix standing Macedonian phalangites by showing them in action. A set of poses that allows for the front ranks of a sarissa phalanx in combat. Probably not really good for gaming, though one could simply claim the space below the pikes as base.

  • SS

    How about generic chariot sprues, which get completed by diffferent Crews and works for most late Bronze Age factions?

    -Skeleton type chariot  for Canaanites, Hurrians and Mitanni

    -Wooden type chariot for light Hitties, Arzawa and Sea People

  • HM

    Sign me up for Trojan, Mycenaenas and Sea Peoples!

    But some others I would love to see are Assyrians and -perhaps controversally- Sumerians.

  • Caratacus

    @Karol Siadul I honestly hope WA doesn't go down that route. It's annoying enough to see Warlord so obsessed with Bolt Action that it neglects their (far more interesting in my view) Ancients and Dark Ages ranges, it would be a tragedy and waste of potential for WA to follow them in those footsteps. There are so many Ancient factions that haven't had any decent plastics made for them, compared to the main WWII factions for example which already have very popular Bolt Action plastic boxes that it would be a waste of time and talent for WA to mimic when they can capitalise on niches that Warlord have ignored. The same goes for Napoleonics, Warlord have once again been on the ball with Napoleonic plastics by and large and it would be pointless for WA to try and create their own versions of the same kits.

    Anything Bronze Age would be marvellous - I've already advocated my support for Trojan War box sets, plus I'd like to see Assyrians, Hittites, Sea Peoples, hell even a combi-box for Bronze Age Britons/Germans/Gauls/Northern Europeans in general if WA want a real challenge. Chariots would in particular be a big seller as I imagine they could become a faff to build in metal.

    With regards to Iron Age, Romans and Greeks have been done to death (though plastic Greek Artillery would defintely be another niche ticked off the list, as the only plastic artillery Warlord have done thus far has been for the Romans, and just the Scorpion), Victrix have gone all into Persians but as WA already have some Persian Infantry of their own it wouldn't hurt to make some chariots and cavalry, and I agree with one of the posts above that Ancient Indians would be excellent and certainly haven't been done before in plastic. 

    And I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg, there is so much WA could make in this period that it would be criminal if they left the First Empires line in the dust in favour of World Ablaze and Napoleon's Wars.

  • BVD

    @Axel Schudak Hmm, actually I think earliest gunpowder weapons in China in  might be in Blood Oaths given the 904 CE/AD date at earliest, Ming would be the Renaissance range since WA already has the conquestadors and Aztecs in that range.  

    For  First Empires, if we are not counting Warring States, the solid  Chinese Dynasty choices  would be the bronze age blood god worshiping Shang Dynasty and their enemy/sacrificial victim provider the Yi tribes followed by the Zhou dynasty and Namman  or one of the other four barbarian tribes.  There is also Gojoseon which is the first Korean Kingdom and does not really have a known start date and seems to have been around since the Shang, it may be even older. While these would all be fun, Alexander Age India is probably the set to do next after the Egyptians and whatever that chariot pic was.

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  • BVD

    @Caratacus  

    To my knowledge Warlord's Ancients and Dark Ages ranges where done by other companies one of which I am pretty sure is dead (Immortal Miniatures) and the other strictly does mold work for other people now (Wargames Factory Hong Kong), which is probably why they have not done much more with them beyond metals.

  • MD

    Honestly, it's more GBP or Victrix's thing than Warlord's anyway.

    Unless one of the Perrys gets the bronze age bug... then you'd see three dozen metals and four plastic kits in quick succession! ;)

  • Caratacus

    @Brian Van De Walker Warlord's Celt, Imperial Roman and Caesarian/Marian Roman sprues are their own creations, though you are on point with Immortal Miniatures being the creators of their Hoplite sprue, Cutting Edge Miniatures making their Bronze Age range and their current obsession with re-releasing Wargames Factory sets of varying quality rather than making their own.

    That still isn't an excuse, though, for them to neglect their ancients model line so much, nor is it an excuse for WGA to do the same. It's like Games Workshop with their faction bias, except here it's 'era bias' or 'period bias'.

  • BVD

    @Caratacus

    You positive on that? cause almost every time I think Warlord actually did their own sculpting on something it turns out it was someone else sculpts early and Warlord got the molding right (this includes the metals).🤣 (not doubting you its just really hard to believe they do their own sculpting beyond maybe some of the newer boltaction infantry given what I have observed  over the years about them).

    That said there is Victrex doing the early Roman era and late Hellenist Bronze Age, and doing a pretty good job of the western meditation states for those times.

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  • Caratacus

    @Brian Van De Walker 

    I am certain in the case of the Celt, Imperial Roman and Caesarian Roman sprues - if you look at them they have 'copyright Warlord Games' and the year they were first developed moulded onto them. Of course those are the only Ancients sprues that have that and it's disappointing that they haven't bothered to develop that side of their sculpting as they have with their golden boy Bolt Action, but there's the proof.

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  • BVD

    @Caratacus

    That doesn't mean they sculpted them from step 1, just as likely (more so given what I know of them, even their Golden boy didn't start out as their sculpting🙄) that they just got the molding with Rendera done after the original sculpter had sold all the rights to them. 

    For example the Landsknects where a crowdfund project sculpts originally by someone else but the guy in charge had to cancel an refund for some reason but Warlord got the mold rights and I don't see that other group's name on those sprues. Given the sculpting work on the Romans and Celts, not to mention how well they work with the Hoplites, etc. I say they are Immortal miniatures sculpting team's handy work originally that where either in the prototype stages or even the waiting que over at Rendera when Warlord took over thier operations.

     

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  • SS

    How about Early Imperial Romans in Scale?

  • Caratacus

    @Steffen Seitter An interesting proposition, but I thought scale armour didn't appear in the Roman army until the Late Imperial Era. Feel free to prove me wrong with any sources you may have, however.

     

    Just thought of something else - Ancient Greek Archers, with options for some wearing some form of body armour (as some games allow certain cities like Corinth to make use of Heavy Archers wearing body armour), along with Peltasts (though I hope the Thureophoroi box allows options for standard Peltasts as well as heavy variants) and Psiloi. All the other manufacturers have focused on Hoplites, so it'd be nice to see a company focus more on the Skirmishers to marry up with other companies' Hoplite sets.

  • SS

    Nah, Scale (Lorica Squamata) was (after Mail, Lorica Hamata) the other common armour in the east and was used through all Imperial Periods. The Romans adapted Scale Armor possible when they started to conquer the "old east" in the 1st Century BC, possible from Armenia and the Parthians.

    Scale has a long history back to the Bronze Age and was used by the Seleucides, Parthians, Armenians and possible the Pontic before Rome conquered their territories. It's impossible that roman soldiers didn't worn Scale from the moment that Armor Type was available.

    Scale Armor with strong oval Neck / upper torso Protection is a invention of the Seleucids and was addapted by the Parthians und was still used by Romans and Sassanids in Late Antiquity.

    Emperor Trajan ordered those of his Leginaries during his Dacian Wars which worn Scale Armor to wear other types for better protection - large Parts of his Army came from the Eastern Part of the Roman Empire.

    Many do (our want to) see the Romans only in their hollywood clichee fashion with Weisenau helmets and Lorica Segmentata only, but the roman army was more diverse. While the Segmentata was exclusive used in the west (together with the Hamata), Squamata and Hamata were the (only) used Armors in the East.

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Saw a copy of this on eBay the other day and thought it may be of interest here. An interesting way to put ancient figures to use.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/redpandapublish/the-adventurers-guide-to-the-bible/description

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    https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/

  • JTam

    @Grumpy Gnome 

    I don't play RPGs, but that looks unique and fun.

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