Conquistadors: Men of near insane bravery with a fortitude near unimaginable to modern persons.
The purpose of this thread is to share sources of inspiration related to Conquistadors.
Conquistador Inspiration
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Season 3 of Netflix's "Blood, Sex, and Robots" has an episode called "Jibaro." In it fighting men I choose to believe are Conquistadors encounter a Siren.
Well worth a watch.
https://www.netflix.com/us/title/80174608?s=a&trkid=13747225&t=cp&vlang=en&clip=81580597
It's visually impressive if nothing else.
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The recent big screen release "Jungle Cruise."
A largely entertaining film chock full of gaming inspiration. It's got back of beyond/Pulp vibes, dangerous natives, jungle cats, and a German submarine.
It's halfway to an Edgar Rice Burroughs novel. (This is a very good thing).
It also features the always amazing Emily Blunt.
But back to the point (and trying to avoid spoilers) it is full of Conquistadors.
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Picture I took at my local zoo:
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The Love Death and Robots episode was good. Though the one with Mars bot is my favorite that season... "F you Honey Badger!"
There was an old cartoon show.. The Mysterious Cities of Gold... It came on Nickelodean I think when I was a wee one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Cities_of_Gold
It initially ignited my fandom of Conquistadors. The Theme song was great too.
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@William Redford
I had never heard of the "Mysterious Cities of Gold" cartoon. Just read the wiki and watched the trailer. Interesting mix of history, fantasy, and sci-fi.
The opening song for some reason reminded me of the song "Ecuador" Having spent four years in Germany in the 90s, I can't actually hear someone say Ecuador without hearing an "Ecuador!!!!!!" in my head thanks to this song.
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@JTam where is that top part from? It doesn't exactly seem to be accurate to the nature of the real conquistadors.
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@Estoc
The "Jindaro" episode?
There is NOTHING about it that's historically accurate. But it captures some of the sense of wonder, mystery, danger, and horrors the Conquistadors must have experienced.
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The 1986 movie "The Mission."
I saw this too long ago to give a decent review of it.
I do remember the protagonists forego defending an incredible natural obstacle/chokepoint where 2 boy scouts and a syphilitic chimp could hold of 6 divisions. Instead they opt for a series of the most poorly conceived, planned, and executed ambushes I've ever seen. The movie made me dumber. Only watch it of you have brain cells to spare.
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@JTam Ok, I guess that leaves me out... at least if what my wife says is accurate.
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@William Redford
LOL.
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@JTam Original Messsage.
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@Estoc @JTam The "Men of insane bravery and unimaginable fortitude" part. I will admit, that is not really something I associate with conquistadors. I always picture them as using trickery and superior equipment to win battles and being cruel and gold hungry... Not that I dont like them, but I always view them as sort of "the bad guy". Definitely would not associate that with bravery or superhuman fortitude.
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Sail across a giant ocean in a rickety wooden boat. Land on a strange new world. Attempt to conquer an entire continent. Battle extraordinary numbers. Cross hundreds if not thousands of miles on foot while fighting disease, starvation, the heat, and hostile natives the whole way. No water purification tablets. No medicine as we would recognize it.
Whether you think they are the bad guys or the good guys is irrelevant to their bravery and fortitude which is beyond dispute.
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@JTam :) I don't know if it's beyond despute and you can put that spin on a lot of aggressors. Somali pirates, drug cartel, etc etc. do I think they are cool? Yes! Individually we're plenty of them brave? Yes. But I think for the majority was it a matter of bravery? Or was it a matter of poor or desperate men that signed on to do a job because they had no other options? Also I don't believe the vast majority really knew what they were signing up for. Facing vast numbers and trying to conquer a whole nation of people. Brave, yes. But again I believe this came down more to leadership choosing that rather than the average man waking up and saying "I'm gonna conquer a whole new world of people." History is made by ambitious and talented people. And there were certainly those in this case. But history is also made of normal people just following orders of those ambitious and talented men. And I would wager there were plenty of those here too. Would I put all of the men at inhumanly brave and with fortitude beyond understanding? No. And thst is not to take away from the history thst was made. But like anything a lot comes down to circumstances and being in the right place at the right time (or wrong time). And an argument can be made that although superior in numbers, the indigenous peoples that faught the conquistadors were "braver". If they truly thought that the Spanish were gods, and the dogs were demons and that horses were magical beasts yet still faced them...
having said all that, I still think the conquistadors are cool. But not any braver or more hardy than the Spartans, the men who faught at the Alamo (on both sides) or the people fighting now anywhere in the world. Or really those of who faught or died in any conflict in history.
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The fact that you CAN compare Conquistadors to the Spartans or the defender of the Alamo pretty much makes the case.
Bravery is largely divorced from intent. (I'm not saying Conquistadors were good or bad. "Cool" or not cool.) They stepped into a true unknown, to battle Mother Nature and a hardy human foe that vastly outnumbered them. For whatever reason they did that, it's near insane bravery.
Somali pirates are not generally brave. Attacking unarmed boats does not generally require signficant bravery.
Is the Taliban evil? Yes, by just about any definition. Don't believe it? Pay them a visit. Bring your family. However, are the Taliban brave? Generally yes. I respect their courage. Fighting for years against an opponent that has most every advantage in technology takes bravery. Even "just" digging in a roadside bomb at night when you don't know if your going to suddenly get smoked by a drone, attack chopper, sniper team, or ambush is brave. Ambushing an enemy who has artillery and CAS on tap is brave.
I don't think the fortitude thing is disputable either. Take just the Coronado expedition. Doing that journey TODAY on foot or by horse using modern roads and with food and water supply via car and with no hostile natives would still be a major feat. Maybe it's harder for an someone who wasn't an Infantryman or serious hiker to understand just what they accomplished. I know I thought it was "just walking" until I had to move 20 miles in a day with a ruck. Back then without maps you wouldn't even know if you would be able to find water again before dying of thirst.
Sidenote: The old stories about the natives thinking the Conquistadors were gods and cavalryman Centaurs and dogs demons are almost certainly just that. And they do a discredit to the natives. How stupid do you think they were? People who take shits, sex your women, and die of fever clearly aren't gods. A cavalryman is clearly a guy on top of animal. It doesn't require a giant intellectual leap to get the concept. The natives had dogs. The Conquistadors had slightly bigger angrier dogs. Not a hard thing to grasp though.
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Wait. You think Somali pirates are cool? I mean to each his own, but they made a South Park Episode about how lame they are.
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@JTam Somali pirates attacking unarmed people and stealing from them is something the conquistadors did as well.
the part about comparing them to Spartans making your case... well your words were "inhumanly brave and with fortitude beyond understanding" if we are saying that the comparison is a good one, which it sounds like you are, then their bravery is on level with those others. Inhumanly implies that it is beyond it. Which it sounds like you have admitted that it is not, if it is indeed comparable to the others I mentioned.
As far as the lengths and depths of their travels. Yes those on those expeditions did travel far and faced hardships and dangers just like any other the other explorers and pioneers did. Again thst would put them on comparable levels not inhuman ones or beyond comprehension.
You are right that whether they were good guys or bad guys is irrelevant. But holding them up as super human or better than everyone else is kind of... naive. They were men. Normal men. I don't think holding them up as the bravest or strongest does them any good. And I don't think the facts hold up. History is made of facts. The facts of what the accomplished is indisputable. Anything else is subjective. If your subjective opinion is they were inhumanly brave with fortitude beyond modern understanding, then I can respect that as your opinion. But really thst is no different (or more or less factual) than saying "I think they were badass!"
The indigenous people believing they were not gods (even in the beginning), do you have a source for that being discredited? I am genuinely interested in that as I had not heard that.
edit: and your walking 20 miles with a ruck sack. I think that is a fair example. I think the comparison is a good one. You are a modern man, and had the fortitude to do that. So saying that their fortitude was beyond the understanding of modern man is not accurate, as you know first hand.
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oh and the dogs. The natives had dogs. Small 6-8 pond creatures that were kept as food and sometimes pets. The Spanish dogs were not comparable and weighed up to 250lbs. The natives did not believe they were the same creatures or related. There are a couple of good articles about the Spanish dog use and the effect on the native morale. If you are interested I can link them.
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Reference the natives thinking the Conquistadors being discredited:
You'll see there's plenty to suggest it's nonsense. There's some links to papers in pdf format. It will never be conclusive but use your own common sense and just think about it. It doesn't pass the sniff test.
I said:
I at no point said superhuman. But the bravery and endurance they exhibited is unachievable and unknowable to 80% of the modern world's population. Probably 99.9% of the Western world's population.
They were not normal men. Normal men would never have gotten in the the ships, let alone got off them on a hostile shore. Normal men with normal bravery kept fishing in Spain.
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@JTam normal men did this everyday. And continue to do this. The world is made of normal men. The fact that they do extraordinary things is what makes history. And any person has it in them to do so. If normal men did not do this then none of history would have happened.
if I misunderstood your use of "insane" and "unimaginable", I apologize.
The smell test as you say is an interesting argument. The Google search you provided shows a lot of opinions, but as you said nothing really factual. Though it reminds me of the saying that any technology sufficiently advanced would appear as magic to those unaccustomed to it. So I am not sure if I agree with your argument. But again, I accept your opinion. It's only when someone says an opinion is "indisputable" do I object.
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The Conquistadors were certainly not the good, guys not even from the perspective of the spanish. They wiped out a society of scientists (The Inca) for basically no reason and ruined spain's economy by bringing back too much gold. They were also dumb enough to find a city of gold and assume that a city of EVEN MORE GOLD had to be out there, and then got lost. And at least some modern equivalent are doing it to survive rather than get richer. Although with all the opression and sacrifices, the aztecs weren't too good either, but that was just the ruling class.
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@William Redford
Have to disagree with you. Some men are braver and more driven and they make "history". There are indeed a lot of "normal" men and absolutely no "history" would happen if the world was just them. And a lot of men are cowards and quitters. I've seen it firsthand when things got rough.
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@JTam that's ok. Our opinions are what make us. Disagreeing is part of that. My opinion, normal people are driven in to non normal situations everyday. From a mother fighting off a bear to save her children to a man committing murder. The people themselves aren't out of the ordinary, but the circumstances are. That's what makes humans human. Is the way humans adapt or respond to the circumstances. Again, my opinion, but if you took an average conquistador and brought him in to the modern world, would he stand out physically over a comparable man? And by comparable I mean someone with military training like he would have undergone. Would the conquistador be stronger, faster, more enduring then your average Us marine? Or Taliban fighter? I don't believe he would. If you took that US marine or tslivsn fighter and put them in Mexico at that time, would they lag behind or not fare as well as the average conquistador? I dont believe they would. Unless you are saying that that average marine or talk an fighter (or anyone really) is not a normal person then my argument would still be that the conquistadors were normal men in a bit normal circumstance.
now if you put out names like Cortez or other individuals then I would agree that they aren't your average person and would not be normal. Any more than if you named extraordinary people today. Michael Phelps. Not your average guy. Just like Mohamed Ali or Bruce Lee. But saying that the conquistadors were all of that caliber I don't think is justified. We have extraordinary people today just like we had extraordinary people through out time, but not everyone is extraordinary. And yet history is not just made by the Michael Phelps's or Bruce Lees.
The Conquistadors were just men. Some were better than others, just like we have today. As a whole my opinion is they were not braver or hardier than others. But endured the situation they were in. I think just as any others would if faced with the same situation.
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Fascinating discussion folks.
I will admit that as much as I think the Conquistors are interesting, I do not find them as cool as I did in my youth. I was once very mislead in the understanding of Columbus and the Conquistadors that followed him.
Their accomplishments are remarkable but incredibly tainted.
I could say the same about folks at the Alamo. I only recently learned how the creation of Texas is steeped in slavery and it has tarnished my view of the Alamo and subsequent defeat of Santa Anna. I could also say the same for the Wehrmacht, Aztecs, British Army, American Army, Soviet Army, Romans, Norse, Ottomans, etc etc etc.
Not as good a film as I once thought but I always think of Hunt for the Royal Sun when I think of Conquistadors. Some interesting and thought provoking dialogue in the writing of that movie although Christopher Plummer’s characterization is somewhat bizarre.
Jtam’s opening post felt...off, a bit anyway. A little too blasé in regards to the associated atrocities of the various Conquistadors. There seemed a focus on the more popular, more fantastical side of the Conquistadors. Hence why I was not more supportive of this thread originally. William Redford has conveniently voiced my concerns better than I could articulate.
However, I do respect the military achievements of the Conquistadors and I think they looked cool. And I bought a box of WGA Conquistadors for Ghost Archipelago.
I did want to add, since the thread has wandered into this topic of history... in my opinion history is imperfect and is written about those fortunate enough to be remembered. Plenty of mediocre people “made history” and plenty of exceptional people have been forgotten. I think about all the things I have done in my life (civilian, military and police) and of those things which were remarked on by the press. The things that were recorded online. The things in my DD214. The recorded history of my actions. They were not the best or worst of my actions.
A friend of mine calls himself a history atheist, he does not believe in history.
Meaning he does not believe recorded history is a truly accurate record of what really happened. Instead it is merely a pale reflection of what some people perceived and then recorded. Which is then interpreted by other fallible people with their own perspectives, agendas, and stereotypes.
I would not go that far but I think he makes an interesting argument and I always consider it when thinking about history.
PS For some reason I really, really dislike Somali pirates and I do not know why I have such an adverse reaction to them.
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@Grumpy Gnome that is a very interesting take on how history is made. Dark, but interesting. And I think I probably lean more towards that take.
fir the record, :) I don't think Somali pirates are cool. I did reread where I mentioned Somali pirates, and I was referring to conquistadors being cool but my grammar is not the best...
I did find the southpark Somali pirate episode funny. But any Cartman-centric episode in southpark is pretty great.
conquistadors are interesting to me. My mother and that side of the family is Puerto Rican. So while I think the armor and weapons and history is cool, a lot of bad things were done as well. I read that modern Puerto Ricans have less than 6% Taino blood left.
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"The Lost Continent" (1968) - a desultory tramp steamer full of dangerous explosives is stranded in a "lost continent" of deadly man-eating Sargasso Seaweed with the wrecks of antique sailing ships still crewed by the undying descendents of pirates, conquistadors, and the Spanish Inquisition, while some of the most bizarre monsters ever put to film fight to the death over nubile young women!
Coming soon to a skirmish wargaming session near you....
(No? Well, it's about time SOMEONE does it!)
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@Yronimos Whateley it's available on Roku in the "Adventure flix" channel. 2.5 hours. I added it. It looks... well it's a Hammer film. I'm gonna give it a try this weekend.
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@Yronimos Whateley @William Redford
Nice flare gun attack to the midsection.
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I saw it when I was really young, back in the '70s or '80s, and then saw it again several years ago to make sure it really exists! I was mesmerized by it as a kid - loved the monsters and shipwrecks and all that. As an adult... well, it didn't age well, with maybe the first half being pretty slow, but the goofy monsters weird costumes, creepy sets, and the sheer lunacy of the plot and premise were just about as much fun as I remembered.
The flare gun was amazing, and I wince every time I see the hanged mutineer bonk his noggin on the lifeboat's block-and-tackle :D
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That looks like classic Hammer Horror fun!
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So, having watched @Yronimos Whateley 's movie recomendation, I found another. A Horror movie called "Daughters of Satan" daughters of satan trailer
The movie is not bad (but not great) and stars a young (pre-magnum) Tom Sellek. It takes place in the Phillipines and Tom is an art collector/seller who finds a painting of Conquistadors burning witches, and one of the witches looks like his wife. He buys it because of this, and strange things start to happen. His Great Great grandfather was scottish/irish and fought with the spanish and may have taken part in the burning of the witches...
Anyway, it kind of has me thinking of a conquistadors in asia campaign. Guam and the Philipines specifically. Does anyone have any book recomendations for Philipino troops and dress at approx 1560? And if you are familiar, any good suggestions for miniatures... hopefully some plastic sets that with a little work could be converted to be good enough proxies for them?
Edit: The article linked just shows the similarity in language between Tagalog and Indian (sanskrit). Its funny because Indonesian also has some similarities. Mukha is listed as face in both Tagalog and Indian in that article. In Indonesian its Muka. Gaja (elephant is the same as well. Indonesian shares some similarities to Spanish through the Dutch colonization. Meja is table in Indonesian, Mesa in Spanish.. Zepatu is shoe, Zepato in Spanish. Pesta/fiesta, etc etc... I always find language evolution fascinating.
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I found this that looks to be a good source.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
Spanish and natives vs a pirate force of Japanese, Chinese and philipino pirates. Looks like it would be a good inspiration.
"The clash pitted Spanish musketeers, pikemen, rodeleros and sailors assisted by allied native warriors against a larger group of Japanese, Chinese, and likely native Filipino pirates made up of rōnin, soldiers, fishermen, and merchants (smugglers and legitimate).[6] The pirates had a large junk, and 18 sampans which are flat bottomed, wooden fishing boats."
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The Mysterious Cities of Gold achieved stardom and cult status in France, since it was a French-Japanese joint venture; watched first season while a teen and it was awesone.. unlike the latest and more modern seasons released in France and french-speaking countries around 2017-2018.
Mmm... I think nobody did mention that awesome movie with the late Klaus Kinski: Aguiree, the Wrath of God (1972)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068182/
Quite a visual experiment and a marvelous actor performance... like Vahalla Rising, The Headhunter or Green Knight for instance.
Or "Oro" (2017), a very good spanish movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_(2017_film)
🧐
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WI WGA Conquistadors review.
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From the Conquistador display at the Fort Bliss Museum:
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There's a newish miniseries on Amazon, "Boundless."
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B1L5ZMF6/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
Commander Ferdinand Magellan and 269 crew aboard 5 ships set out from Spain to find a Western route to the Spice Islands. Three years later 30 crew and one ship return to Spain having achieved the greatest feat in maritime history.
The series was filmed in Spanish and I believe Portuguese, although I think dubs are available for those who are into that kind of thing.
The production values are high. The ships look great.
The locations look right.
I thought the score could have been better.
Well worth a watch. It doesn't represent a huge investment in time, the series is 6 sub hour episodes.
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@William Redford
The 5th episode of "Boundless" sees Magellan and crew fighting Filipinos.
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@JTam looks interesting. I may try and watch tomorrow while working.
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Lots of biker armor towards the end (and mail armor on the guards in the beginning). Healthy amount of shifting plot bits around for drama and shortening. Battle scene was weird... almost every frame is a native getting killed, but in the end the natives won? Still can't figure out if the Italian guy in his narration bits is speaking Italian or Spanish, but a bunch of the Portuguese lines really sounded different.
Also, that "king Carlos" was a German who grew up in the Netherlands, not a random Spanish kid.
Overall, I give it a "better than GoT season 8".
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@Blutze
I always find it fascinating how two people can watch the exact same thing and see completely opposite things.
I thought the battle looked right. There were some Spanish and one notable Portuguese casualties shown on film. Mostly you saw a hugely outnumbered Spaniard force mauled and pushed back into the sea. A healthy kill ratio isn't going to turn the tide of battle when it's 30 versus a thousand plus.
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After that additional batch of natives showed on the dunes (just before the first, last and only musket "volley"), there was no macro information anymore. No wide shots of the sailors getting swarmed or pushed back, no dialog along the lines of "they just keep coming" - "well then keep killing them", no numerical context for the amount of casualties. I guess I was distracted by the individual kills being kinda repetetive and theatrical.
Gotta give points for armor working though. Even if in earlier episodes, they showed cannon as way too accurate and effective.
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@JTam @Blutze I watched it last night on Prime. overall I liked it. It was only 6 episodes so I binged it in one go. I was surprised when the Chief told Magellan to enter his house, he said "masuk" (ma sook) which is Indonesian for "enter". I now wonder if it is the same in Tagalog or if its a regional dialect of that island (Samar) that found its way to Indonesia as well.
I admit that I didnt like the battle. I know its more or less what historically happened but it does paint a bad light on the arrogance of Magellan and the spanish sailors and their underestimation of the natives as primitive and as "savages" that he thought he could just mow them down with his superior technology. Edit: Though to be fair he did say that he thought the Muskets and pistols should be enough to "scare them off" so i guess he wasnt expecting a pitched battle.
But overall it was well done. And the battle was an interesting scene.
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@William Redford
Reference the battle. You think it paints Magellan in a bad light? Or the natives?
It certainly doesn't paint a bad light on the natives. They win.
It does paint Magellan in possibly a poor light. Hubris is never a good look.
That being said Magellan was an experienced fighting man. I'm sure he knew the extreme limitations of the muskets of the time as well as anyone. (Semi-decent bow + semi-skilled user trumps the smoothbore musket in accuracy, effective range, rate of fire, and all weather capability.) (You're not "mowing" down anyone or anything with a couple dozen muskets.)
While Conquistadors had pulled off other victories against extreme odds... and clearly Magellan believed "He who dares wins".... I believe Magellan just underestimated the size of the opposing force and rapidly got overwhelmed when a 100 natives became a thousand plus.
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@JTam yeah was definitely referring to Magellan. The battle didn't really convey the natives numbering in the 1000's. I went back and rewatched it and while they did outnumber the crew, it did not "look" to be that drastic odds based on what was shown. Had they had a shot of a tide of natives that would have sold it more or if as @Blutze said and even had people reference the odds in the battle then it would have captured the scene better.
as it was, it looked like there were 20 or 30 Spanish on the beach and maybe 50 or 60 of Lapulapu's men. The Spanish fired a single volley from super far away and killed maybe 3 or 4 in that and then melee. And it looked like they were doing well in the melee as at first all you saw were natives dying, then they were not.
a wide angle showing more of Lapulapu's mem would have been good.
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This may be of interest to folks reading this thread.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/project/1758046/
Some interesting ideas regarding Ghost Archipelago, Silver Bayonet and Mesoamerica. Some great kitbash conversions.
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@Grumpy Gnome
That's a great link!
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My take on a couple of points here.
#1: Courage for me is mostly knowing what you're facing, and doing it anyway. I'm not really sure that applies to the average conquistador. Blundering into the unknown for glory and riches... that's something else.
#1: Magellan may have been a great navigator, but it's not correct to say he circumnavigated the world. He died in the Philippines and the circumnavigation was completed by Elcano. We generally assume Magellan would have managed the navigation of the second half of the trip, but who is to say?
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@Mark Dewis
1. The unknown is always more terrifying than the known. What courage is needed to sail into the blue unknown where it is impossible to know if you will find land again before thirst, starvation, or the sea kills you?
And the Conquistadors knew the general shape of the problem. A huge Ocean. And an entire hostile continent.
2. Technically true. And I said the Magellan EXPEDITION was the greatest feat in Maritime history.
But these words were written by one of the men who DID circumnavigate the globe.
He gives credit were credit is due.
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