The Voice of the People!
Lots of discussion on this major announcement/change spread over two or three different largely unrelated threads.
Vox Populi warrants its own thread.
https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/vox-populi
The last part is exciting as you can track how many votes boxes have in real time.
My question is:
Say you buy four votes for $20. Do you get four $5 dollar gift codes or one gift code for $20? Can you stack codes if they are separate? In other words if I buy 4 votes can I use that $20 dollars against my next purchase or do I have to use them one at a time over four purchases?
This has been going less than 24 hours but the super early results are none the less interesting:
Top Place:
Napoleonic Spanish - 30 votes
Cannon Fodder Command and Heavy Support - 9
Merovingian Franks - 8
Conquistador Cavalry - 8
Skeleton Cavalry - 7
Warring States Infantry - 6
Thureophoroi - 6
New Kingdom Egyptian Spearmen, Modern Operators - 5
Early War British, Trojan Chariot, Partisans (2), Trolls, Raumsjager Command and Heavy Support, Valkir, Modern Insurgents - 3
What con job. I don't care about Sci Fi, Fantasy, etc.... I'm just waiting for the damn Late Roman legionaries in lorica squamata and I'm not going to be blackmailed into paying 5 bucks ahead of time to get them moved up in the queue. Y'know, Victrix is getting ready to release their LR armored legionaries.
@Grumpy Gnome
This early on and with these few votes, that lead might just represent one really motivated person. Hard to tell.
But certainly interesting.
Well... nothing really happens until a set gets 1000 votes right? So $5000 gets a set put at the top of the list. Napoleanic spanish has 30 votes. So essentially someone preordered a 5 box deal...
I dont see it as a con, but at the same time, I doubt I will be using this. While I have bought 5 box sets for both the conquistadors and Ogres, I am unlikely to do so a year in advance to push them out faster. Especially since it really wont do that unless 1000 votes are in for a set.
Next time I do make a 5 box purchase, I will put it in as votes first and use the vouchers to buy the set i want... But I doubt I will just vote if I am not already making a purchase.
So right now, it doesnt matter that Naploeanice SPanish is ahead... as there is no "ahead" its either 1000 or nothing...
@William Redford this mindset sounds similar to "My vote won't matter, so why do it?" Which is a false statement. Your vote does matter. It gets a kit that much closer.
Of course, your reasons for voting or not voting are entirely your own and I'm not trying to change that.
@Ten Fingered Jack how is it a con-job? You get your money back in a gift cert that you can put towards future purchases, including an eventual pre-order of the kit you voted for?
@Lord Marcus
Do you have an answer for this?
Thank You.
@JTam You get 4 x $5 gift codes. Yes you can stack codes and effectively buy boxed sets.
@Lord Marcus
Great. Thank You.
Good fellows... I'm honestly quite pissed off. Or... "Je suis honnêtement assez dépité", disappointed, surprised (bad surprise).
You all seem to find normal that we have to pay to have the right to vote. Strange. For me, it's symbolically stiff (c'est symboliquement raide), unfair, even undemocratic.
By what right can we exclude those who, honestly, would like to vote ? History says : "because they are poor... strangers, primitive, different, black, women, not Party members", and so on.
Only let the convinced and the people who have money to vote, what do you call that ? Justice ?
Unless there is a real counterpart, FOR ALL, it's "stinky mud" (you can use a more vulgar word). It's just arbitrary.
Salute from France, and Euskal Herria.
@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy it's not a democracy or a social structure. It's a business. Politics has nothing to do with it.
I won't be buying votes as such, but expect that when I have an order planned from the WGA store that I'll make a few votes and use the vouchers to pay it off.
One thing I'd like confirmed is the turnaround on the vouchers - more or less immediate, able to be put towards an order same day?
@Grumpy Gnome There was someone on Facebook planning to drop a few boxes' worth on votes for Napoleonic Spanish, so maybe not too surprising.
I stopped ordering directly from Wargames Atlantic after an order of mine was delayed months and months due to their bizarre preorder shipping policy. So, I'm not voting any time soon.
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask about it but maybe some other people are having the same problem. When I try to apply one of the gift cards at checkout I get a notification saying "There was a problem with our checkout. Try again in a few minutes".
To be honest the scheme didn't sit well on first glance. The cost feels a bit icky. And having the release be based on a vote, rather than when sets are ready just doesn't sit well with me. Ses that mean none of these sets will be worked on until the $5000 is made? That seems like it would lead to nothing but angry customers wondering why they weren't released the following week.
On the other hand, if the sets are prepped early and are waiting for the votes to be made, that just wasted opportunity. Neither feels particularly good. What if votes come in faster than expected? What if they are slower than rxpected?
Then there is the 1000 vote goal. That feels really high. Someone like me who might by a few boxes at a time really isn't going to feel like my vote is going to affect much. I'd almost rather not see what the numbers are at.
I've been trying to buy at local gaming stores when I can, and I've already got the Atlatic Digital votes, so I feel like I already have touch as in WGAs plan. I probably won't engage in this much, but the pessimist in concerned.
And it should be stressed that the 1000 vote thing just fast tracks the set. Likely meaning that it will get priority over other kits at the same stage of development to move to the next stage. A kit that's being tooled isn't going to be put aside for one that's still in layout, though other kits at the layout stage may get bumped for the popular kit.
They are all still in the pipeline, and WGA are still releasing at a steady rate of probably one or two new kits per month.
In terms of ordering from WGA, I had one excellent experience when items were in stock, and one frustrating one when it was a preorder. But the latter happened to be the big delay last year when they were shifting production from China to USA. I can forgive that, and I got my preorder a couple of months later than projected. These things happen.
To clarify:
at 1000 votes, a set gets put into the fast track queue.
Every kit you see available for votes is actively being worked on. This just helps prioritize the schedule based upon the votes.
The function of the "cost" is to weed out spammers that were skewing the open polls wargames atlantic has run previously. It makes each vote have "Skin in the game" or otherwise make it extremely hard for someone to spoof the results, and thus wargames atlantic gets more data to steer its course forward.
While there is a money exchange at play here, you are not losing money. You are just converting money into gift cards and helping us determine course by that process.
Nothing is meant to be undemocratic here. Nothing is meant to be an injustice or an affront to hobbyists. The system is designed so that what the community actually wants gets made.
Are there faults in what Wargames Atlantic has wrought? Probably. But that is the nature of first attempts. Refinement can only come from experience.
I can tell you that HQ has heard about having to redeem multiple gift cards in a row. They are actively monitoring chatter in the community and adjustments may come down the pike. Knowning HQ, they like to make sure things get done right.
From a business point of view I understand this system. You will learn which product is the safest bet to create/release. But I will not use it. If I am going to pay for Warring States infantry to be released quicker I want that money to go to that product and not a different product in terms of vouchers. Who knows how long it will take for a product to be released! Some products were announced in 2020 as being sculpted and are still not released*. And sure the move might have interfered with some but new sets have been announced in the meantime and some were up for pre-order within a couple of months.
But back to me, hypothetically, voting for the Warring States Infantry. I don't want the Warring States Infantry, nor the Cavalry or the Chariots... I want them all three, because each set on its own its pointless but together they form the core of a proper army. Which has been one of my problems with WGA for a while and simple accepted as relatively new company, the catalogue will grow with time. WGA doesn't release enough for an army or two opposing forces (Death Fields excluded, its a great range). Sure there are now enough kits for some skirmish games in certain ranges (Classic Fantasy, Renaissance, Decline and Fall, Great War and World Ablaze).
I do wonder if 1000 votes is feasible. With the last 8 Facebook votes only three hit over a 1000 votes**. Don't know how the polls go in the Articles & News section of the site. And sure with this system you can cast more votes. But there are a whopping 42 kits to vote on!!! 42 kits that can get a vote, which can and will dilute the voting process. And mind you, WGA released so far 38 products excluding Atlantic Digital. So more than half of WGA's products are in an unfinished state.
I am someone that start many projects and then stops or pauses them to work on something else. It could be a waste of time and money but most of the time I had fun and that is what I want to get out of it. So its not entirely of a waste. To me WGA seems to have this problem too, but WGA is a company... I am not a business person, and certainly not in the miniature world, but I see a problem here. Al those products that are in the queue have had manufacturing costs and you can only get those back with sales, but for that they need to be released. The Atlantic Digital store seemed to be a solution for this as I can imagine the process of converting a 3D file to actual sprues takes time. But a lot of stuff is being released on the Atlantic Digital store, which seems to me takes away time from working on products that are in the pipeline for plastic. Of course I am biased here, I don't have a 3D printer so as a consumer the Atlantic Digital store seems like a distraction but I am fully aware that if I had a 3D printer I would be pretty stoked about it. But all in all I think I am reasonably neutral here. But back to the voting system, I have the impression that WGA started so many kits that they don't know where the head and the tail is, and that they need the community (or their wallets really, which is fair btw) to decide what will be the safest bets for physical release.
My (unsolicited and biased) advice would, after getting these products out of the way, to focus on releasing rivals (as with Marines & Space Bugs and the Aztecs and Conquistadors) or releasing "army cores" Infantry + cavalry or infantry + heavy weapons. Something to give sustenance to a range and make it properly playable without having to rely on other manufactures. And perhaps be more modest with plans. Besides all of criticism I do think WGA is great and on the path to be even greater.
I have been having some of these thoughts for over a year now and this seemed the perfect opportunity to share them. Hope I have been a bit coherent.
* Only focused on what was announced in the news blog (still might have missed some) prior to 2022:
Napoleonic Spanish - April 24, 2020
Afghan Cavalry - September 4, 2020
Thureophoroi - May 5, 2021
Bavarians - June 4, 2021
Merovingian Franks - July 7, 2021
Conquistador Cavalry - July 7, 2021
Napoleonic Russians - June 23, 2021 (okay they have been released as 3D files so 50/50 ish?)
Warring States range - September 27, 2021
Trolls - August 27, 2021
British Infantry (1916-1918) - August 17, 2021
** 304 votes Vox Populi program
737 votes
1249 votes
571 votes
1142 votes
1100 votes
389 votes
483 votes (October 28, 2022)
Can't say I'm a huge fan of this, however I can understand why it's being seen as necessary.
@Grumpy Gnome Not against the idea, strange the "Operators and Insurgents" are so low, I just hope they don`t keep getting delayed. Really wishing for some modern sets . Crazy when you think back in the poles we voted modern civilians, had comical arguments over women and children being included and yet now they seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth. As I am still waiting for my security robots, now one month + 5 days my intention of ordering any more items are nil until I receive my original order and don't feel too inclined to order anything else anyway though l won't 'cut off my nose to save my face.' If something is really good, like civilians, l'll consider it. Cheers Geoff.
@Lord Marcus If a kit gets 1000 votes, would it be announced?
Well, I understand and accept other points of view, my good Fellows.
An explanation for Grumpy Gnome : When I invoke a difference of perception between what seems normal in the Anglo-Saxon world and what is strange for me, educated in Basque Country (of France and Spain), that's not an insult. Just a supposition, a kind of "blank shot in the wind" to understand if my perception is right of not. You and me, we share a lot of values and have a common cultural background, but we are very different (I suppose).
I am, by education and tradition, always obliged to help and take care of my neighbours. A man, alone in the mountain, out of his family and community is weak (and sometimes in danger). My duty is to help him to be well and to survive. The principle is clear : I help you today, you'll help me tomorrow.
Money is not important : today poor or tomorrow rich, I don't care. Men and women are equal in dignity, needs and rights. Economy is good as far as it serves a common welfare, but that's not the Law : the Law is "mutual aid" and "common welfare".
I can't accept to see something like an "apartheid" between poor and rich. PAYING TO BE ALLOWED TO VOTE IS JUST ABSURD FOR ME. That's not Politics : that's my way of understanding human needs and rights. Don't forget my background : we are a minority without cultural rights in France, and we are emerging from a very long and hard distatorship in Spain. All is Politics in Euskal Herria...
So, when a firm uses words like "vox populi" (cf. Roman History), and "to vote" (in French, Spanish or Basque), which is a pure political term (equivalent but not similar with "to choice", for exemple), that's for me "comme de la Politique" (Politika bezala, just like Politics).
Economy, business, yes... but I can't accept the idea of excluding people from the general wellfare. Those who accept this "way of making things" are for me "zozoak" (fools ?). I see that I am in minority. No matter : I may be wrong. I hope to have been clear enough. I close the ban...
That said, that doesn't take away from my interest in what WGA is trying to achieve. On the other hand, the only thing that can assure their success is the quality of their products. When I see the Italian WW2 helmets or the horses' ears, impossible to join. On the other hand, the Resistance line (men and women) or the Aztecs/Conquistadors" duo are convincing.
The real work to be done is on the research (Historic lines) and the final quality of products.
Izan ontsa.
@Berggeit
Well spoken.
Yes.
@Pierre Lerdou-Udoy
I do get the idea that using the term vote is inheritely political and in essence it is here too. It made me pauze for a moment. In this sense Vox Populi is indeed a bit misleading, more positive to use than Vox Numus. But for a customer - company relationship it is logical.
I just think, in this system, the bar is to dam high and the list of choice exaustive.
@JTam That has been on my mind since I first discovered WGA. Why would I buy Persian infantry or the Afghan kit without opponnents or different units? Maybe that some people mix and match with other manufacters but I don't like to do that. At least not for the same faction.
I have an easy fix for the name:
Doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily, but nothing is perfect.
@Berggeit
I'm OK with using opponents from different manufacturers. But mixing manufacturers for the same faction is least preferred for me.
Illustrative example.
I just picked up a 28mm WW2 Italian Army. I went with Warlord in the end. Warlord had nice blisters for command and heavy weapons to supplement the plastic box set. Wargames Atlantic (WGA) .... not so much.
It IS nice you get medium machineguns in the WGA Italian Infantry box. And perhaps WGA STLs will be forthcoming for WW2 Italian heavy weapons. Although I don't have a printer, so a metal blister in hand is worth 2 STLs in the bush.
There were two other deciding factors.
1. The WGA Italian helmets are completely the wrong shape.
2. The Warlord kit has this arm.
LOL. Amazing. WGA needs to make an STL with this arm as a conversion piece
@JTam @Berggeit IT seems so sencible agressor, deffender call it how they fall, there should always be two, we have been saying this in posts for "Donkeys Years". Cheers both.
@JTam Can`t see the Hand, its a David Blane trick isn`t it.? Darn you Tam fell for it once more. Cheers Geoff.😂
Vox Populi just means "the opinions of the people".
It's an opinion poll in any context.
@JTam @Berggeit where are you guys seeing the vote total? When I go to the Vox Populi page it just shows one vote under each category. Do you need to buy a voucher to see them?
@Mark Dewis
You currently have to click on each entry.
In happy news the Trojan Chariot is up to 12 votes. Hopefully WGA looks for trends/leaders as it will indeed take a while for a kit to reach a 1000 votes.
My guess is the first ones to hit 1000 will be basic army troops. People like me that buy the odd box won't generate anywhere as many votes as someone putting together 500 model armies. So it's likely to be the sets those guys are interested that will get voted for.
To be honest I can sympathise with both viewpoints - on one hand, it is perfectly decent of them to put the amount you pay in toward either an existing set or the set you vote for, and you're effectively either paying for a £5 gift voucher with a free kit vote, or paying for a vote with a free £5 gift voucher.
But on the other hand, I can see why @Pierre Lerdou-Udoy sees it as an offence to democracy, because WA are marketing it as supposedly a democratic vote (with a title like 'The Voice of the People'), when the only democracy is among those who pay a fiver to place a vote. Those who don't want to or can't afford to pay (for whatever reason) but do want to vote don't get a look-in. It definitely smells rather like Ferengi culture where you have to pay a slip of gold-pressed latinum just to sit in a waiting room, and it's only really worth it if there's a set you're particularly desperate to get your hands on.
Additionally another problem is that by allowing people to place however many votes they want, it doesn't actually remove all spammers, it only removes those who only do it when there's no money involved. Those with deep pockets who are willing to pay, like the guy on Facebook @JTam mentioned who wanted to dump a load of votes on Napoleonic Spanish, are still spammers, they're just paying to spam. They should without a doubt have only allowed one vote per person, because now there's no way of telling whether, for example, 31 people voted once for Napoleonic Spanish, or one guy voted 31 times for them (which is the more likely hypothesis here).
If they really wanted to get rid of spammers, I think they should have just set up a poll on this forum in a way that only forum members could vote (and reduced the number of votes needed to fast-track a set to something like 50, as there aren't a huge number of regular forumites). All the serious WA fans are willing to join the forum, while spammers are not (and even if they do they are swiftly evicted if they don't contribute anything useful). That way, they would have been able to avoid insalubrious Ferengi-isms while also achieving their main goal of avoiding votes getting spammed.
Also, I'm miffed that most of the Dark Ages sets (apart from the Franks) aren't getting many votes. Come on everybody, we want the Late Roman and Germanic Army Builders to be fast-tracked so we can see what form they take!
Honestly, I'm finding myself siding with @Pierre Lerdou-Udoy on this matter. I've already vented on a dedicated post my issues with how WGA seems to be prioritizing STLs over Plastic Sets which contains a bit of foul language. But I shouldn't have to spend thousands of bucks to help push squats along forward. 1,000 votes seems like an obscene benchmark. And this won't really help with spammers, this only means that the spammers we get are of the Whale variety. Those willing to shell out 5,000 bucks for their favorite set on the spot.
There is also the matter of how physical buyers and LGS' seem to be left out of the loop. Your typical physical box could at least have a code that allows you to submit 7 votes for whichever set you choose. Like if I were to get 3 boxes of Einherjar troops, which is about 72 miniatures for 95 dollars, I would get 19 votes to cast towards whatever I want to vote on (like the Einherjar Heavy Weapons and Command Squad). This would allow the physical buyers and LGS' to have a say in the matter.
@Charles Tottington it's called an incentive to buy direct from the manufacturer, like a store discount for muliple box orders.
@Mark Dewis Yeah, would be nice if buying the boxes direct allowed you to case a few free votes. Since you're pretty much paying the same amount either if you bought 7 votes or bought a box directly.
@Charles Tottington Um, you can do this. Just buy a few vouchers and use them to buy the boxes. That was my point. I see what you're saying but there will be people completely uninterested in voting that just want to buy stuff, but would then feel obliged to use the votes and might skew the poll. This way around means people have to actively vote first.
I guess my biggest question with this is that are these no longer in the standard developement? And if they are... by the time a set reaches 1000 votes wouldnt it alreay be ready for release? I mean if 1000 votes comes fast, great. But if it takes a year to get 1000 votes and actual production does not take a year... then the votes really wont do much...If a set doesnt go anywhere until it reaches 1000 votes then even 1 set a month is not realistic. Heck 1 set every 3 months wouldnt be.
And assuming that sets are still in the production line (based on whatever criteria WA has) and all teh votes do is push them ahead of others, then when a set naturally (meaning without votes) reaches the point for it to be released and say got 100, 500, even 900 votes, then those votes were essentially wasted as they had no bearing on production speed and could have been cast for something else...
I just dont see the voting as doing anything, unless production has ceased and only starts when an item gets 1000 votes... Its not even really a "poll" as nothing happens with votes until a set reaches 1000 votes. So if you have 2 sets... 1 with 1 vote and 1 with 800 votes they are still treated the exact same on the production status...
Edit: Put another way... I am assuming (based on WA statments that the plastic is still being worked on as it was) that a new plastic set will come out within the next 3 months. Based on the current votes, NONE of the sets are even close to 1000 votes... so whatever set comes out within the next 3 months will not have been effected by voting. But any votes it may have got are essentially pointless. And thats even if that set only got 1 vote or it got 999.
So I may be wrong and am just not seeing the point, but I really cant see how this is :the voice of the people". And since the release schedule was pulled all we have now is something that shows how many people like a set, and that extra info has no meaning... unless it reaches the magical number of 1000.
@William Redford They've been pretty clear I thought. The plastic pipeline is in place, is being fed regularly and the set due for release soon would be the WW1 British, which was the only kit listed as being in tooling stage.
Will any kit get the magic 1000 votes to guarantee priority? Maybe not, and it will take a while. But they're open that they are going to use the poll as a guide to setting priorities. If there's ten sets finished one production stage waiting for a window to move to the next stage and only two can be worked on at a time, it's likely that if there are two clearly popular sets they will be the first ones to progress over clearly unpopular ones.
This has only just been put in place - obviously it's going to have minimal effect on current kits that are close to release already. I would think votes for WW1 British are indeed going to be moot.
I don't think the votes are wasted. WGA said they did this to get meaningful feedback from the paying customers.
@Mark Dewis It doesnt actually say that though. It says "when a set reaches 1000 votes it will move ahead in the production queue". Nothing says that sets with more votes will get a higher priority... only that a set that reaches 1000 votes will move ahead... Was the "higher priority" for sets below 1000 votes actually stated? If so then yeah the votes would serve a purpose... If that was said, can you point me to that? I will definitely retract my words if that is the case.
Edit: are you referring to this?:
Because this doesnt actually say that either. It still lists the 1000 votes as the benchmark. It does not state that sets with less than 1000 votes get priority based on number of votes. I mean it could be read that way, but isnt actually stated... If that is the case then yeah.
@William Redford HQ actively looks at vote counts and community imput to adjust the release schedule.
All kits in the plastic poduction queue: I.E. what was on the old release schedule and what is now available to be voted for in Vox Populi, are being worked on.
@Lord Marcus so. To be clear. Are you confirming that sets with votes are put in priority of production based on how many votes they have regardless on if they reached 1000 votes? So a set that has 30 votes is higher priority than a set with only 1 vote? And if so, how often is this looked at? So if in March set A has 50 votes and set B has 75, then set B is the priority. But then in April a person cast 26 more votes for set A making it now higher than set B, does the priority change again? And if the number of votes all along are looked at and set priority, then what exactly does reaching 1000 votes do? As if that set was closing in on 1000 and higher than other sets vote-wise they should be at the top of the priority list anyway?
@William Redford God, BILL I`ve an head ache man, all these 1000`s , rooms spinning with numbers , should have got a tombola. "Any one for agame of Chance". Love to all Geoff.
1000 is just the point at which the people that have collectively committed to USD$5000 worth of purchases are assurred that their collective choice gets priority.
WGA isn't going to totally ignore other projects getting votes. And some projects that may get a great deal of discussion here but no actual cash commitment from anyone... well that's useful planning data too.
@Mark Dewis Sure, ok, but that means that below 1000 there are no assurances. So until a set reaches 1000 votes... then it doesnt mean anything unless WA decides it does. Which means that WA could decide that the set with 300 votes is a priority but they arent really commiting to it.
The votes dont sound like a super solid plan. I have doubts on how effective it will be, but I support Wargames Atlantic so will hope for the best. Is this better than the previous release schedule? I guess we will see. But as of now all it means is we have no idea when a set will be coming out. No idea what stage it is in. But I guess that works to an advantage as well as we wont see which sets have been in sculpting status for over a year already... we just wont know at all.
I thought the initial statement/announcement was reasonably clear. All the kits previously announced are still be worked on just as they were in the past. If a kit hits a 1000 votes it gets front loaded. This really isn't that big of a deal.
@JTam yes. Still being worked on. No idea of the stage. Votes equal front loaded at 1000 votes. But without knowing where a set is at production then voting on it doesn't have a lot of point.
Is it already near the end of its production? Will it reach the end of its production before it hits 1000 votes for the voting to matter? It isn't a big deal but mostly because it doesn't seem like it will do much.
@William Redford right. which is NO DIFFERENT than if they had not put it in place. Except that the previous means of gauging interest gave them poll data that was not very useful.
They have said that, and that they trust a voucher purchase voting system more than an unregulated website one to figure it all out. Tying it to store vouchers that can be used right now for actual in-stock product seems a better idea to me than running a kickstarter with pledges and escalating promises they'd need to change direction to fill. That stuff works for a new company trying to bootstrap itelf off the ground, but that's not where WGA is at.
There could be scope to run a pre-release pre-order kickstarter with some stretch goals. Northstar tend to run those, although they work because the stretch goals are just stuff they already have in production, and it's just a way of building hype and giving out more pre-order bonuses the more that people sign on.
@Mark Dewis the Kickstarter idea is a good one. I would definitely support that.
I will reserve full judgement in the voting until we have actually seen it in play.
@Grumpy Gnome same.
