10mm Caesarean Romans?
Looks like Hudson wants Late Republican Romans of the Marian Reforms in 10mm. A full Range of:
- Late Republican Romans
- Gauls
- Late Ptolemaic Egypt
- Pontic
- Early Germans
- Armenians
- Hellenistic Period Parthians
would be awesome.
There no accurate "archeological up to date" Range for that Period so far. Nice would be Romans in "Eastern Fashion", with Hellenistic Helmets for the Armies of Sulla, Pompeius or Marcus Antonius, Ptolemaic Thorakitai/Thureophoroi with characteristic "Firefighter" Helmets.
Could be later expanded to earlier Periods like Pyrrhus and the Punic/Macedonian Wars.
10mm Caesarian Romans would be relevant to my interests. Where can I find this poll?
Hmm, it looks to me like the Bronze age Northern Europeans are what Hudson "really wants to do" if we go by that poll, though only the god of blind Eurocentrism knows why since we know next to nothing about them (meaning they probably had nothing going on outside of "must survive winter" standard european mode which was best recorded in the Dark Ages) and even in the "hear say" department they seem rather boring unless your going full "questionable" mythica with them. I mean the Schythians and Crimmens on the steppes to the east of them would be better topics.
@Bertrand du Guesclin On facebook.
I just hope Ancients will be next after HYW and SYW Grand Battle Settings.
I mean, made-up northern bronze age models might not have any shirts on, which is very relevant to my interests. still probably a better idea to make Literallly Anything Else, though.
Bronze age Northern Europeans could fit in with a ruleset like Midgard. They can also do double duty for fantasy armies.
@timbus the thirteenth Realistically they would likely look and dress a lot like the Celts out already with maybe a few armor diffrence, the fantasy item we talked about would fill your intrest better.
@Streetgang After looking it up, I am pretty sure Midgard and games like it (such as swordpoint, Hail Caser, WAB, etc.) would work just as well with Egyptians, Sea People or Warring State Chinese, all of which would be cooler fodder for fantasy armies and have better army lists. There just isn't a good reason to really bother with Northern Europeans before the later Roman era when you can simply do Conan style barbarians for fantasy (which would sell better).
@Brian Van De Walker absolutely the rules can be used for other periods to include fantasy. I only mention the Midgard conmection because I recall, years prior to the release of the rules, there were a lot of play tests of Midgard using Northern European Bronze Age armies. These games used Foundry's rather small range for the period.
That's how I initially learned of the ruleset prior to their release and always associated them with that period even if they can be used with other eras and genres.
None of the options listed in the poll really move the needle for me. I'm just waiting on those Azincourt box sets to be released.
I mean yeah, I'd obviously prefer a dedicated kit, but any port in a storm and all that. Generally though, I think you're right that too many wargaming companies focus on western european conflicts. So much cool stuff out that gets swept over in favor of 'okay this kind of visigoth had a faintly different bootstrap pattern, time for ten million extra models'
@timbus the thirteenth Again just from the IRL artifactsI I have seen and considering that the world was much colder back then, realisticaly it should pretty much be the same port the Celts on the market already provide at best since they would have had to dress at least that warmily and I have read the Celts supposedly influenced the art and metal working of that whole region (and just looking at the artifacts, they do look very similar), at worst you can likely use the Goths and Dark Age AB as is practicaly to cover Bronze Age Northern Europeans since there just isn't much left of them (I mean the Encyclopedia Britannica literally refers to it as "the so-called Northern European Bronze Age" like it is an overblown topic, and I can't blame it😆).
The real world Cimmerians who attacked Urartu would probably be a better "fantasy uped" history topic if we are talking proto-historical armies suitable for Fantasy Barbarins.
@Streetgang Yeah, I have seen those Foundry models and honestly I don't think Bronze age Scandies or Germans would dress like that, even in the summer, and the DA Irish look alot like them so I think this is covered 🤣.
TBH, I felt mostly the same way about it and I would like see the 28mm Warring States Chinese out before hearing the words "Northern European" infront of anything plastic related. Though the Mutiny, Maori, and VSF options would all be intresting, particularly VSF.
still crazy to me that there aren't more ancient chinese war games. hell i don't think i've even seen genghis khan's army models before, and they're one of the largest and most interesting military campaigns in history. PLUS the warring states period, PLUS the war of three kingdoms, etc, etc, etc.
@timbus the thirteenth I have seen mongol army minis for sale from a couple of diffrent companies in metal, and Fireforge does sell Genghis khans army in plastic (even lucked out on ebay and have 3 boxes of cavalry in the pile😆), how often it gets put on tables is another matter. Whats really odd is there isn't any wargame campaign books about it, even the European invasion.
Warring States and Three Kingdoms does actually have wargame books, "Art of War" for WAB back when GW did history games, it even covers the Shang Dynasty. That said its rather out of print.
I know basing your miniatures off of other companies outputs can be a real minefield of problems but the Warlord Games Epic Battles Hannibal line was done in what I understand was a proprietary 13mm -15mm scale. I only bring this up as I noticed they have what looks like a pretty fleshed out Celtic plastic subfaction and I had in the past sort of brainstormed finding some Caesarian Romans for a bit of a Caesar in Gaul campaign. Of course Warlord Games may have the same idea and that might be something they will release in the future to get some extra use from their pre-existing plastics. But I am not sure how well the Hannibal set sold so who knows.
But I also think Wargames Atlantic is doing the right thing by fleshing out their 10mm offerings, as I think having some good 10mm Romans to fight against the 10mm Orcs and Undead could be a lot of fun. They may even be good proxies for not-Gondorians/Numenorians. Anyways I don't mean to muddy the waters on the discourse but just throwing some food for thought.
early imperial romans are one of the more popular aesthetics for fantasy settings to steal for their human kingdoms, so getting romans in 10mm would go over well for a lot of people i think.
though Celts would historically be paired up with Ceasarian Roman legions, which had a very different look.
for EIR romans they'd be more commonly matched up with Persians (parthians then sassanians) and against the marcomanni and Sarmatians. (also against other romans, often enough)
I agree that Early Imperial Romans are more common for classical fantasy. I guess what I sort of meant with Caesarian Romans being useful for a not-Gondor/Numenor vibe is that the Romans would be chainmail armed which would perhaps be a bit more in line with the Middle Earth technology level. As I understand it some people were critical of the plate mail armor that the Gondorians had in the LOTR films (the prologue Numenoreans were more modestly equipped with chainmail) as the books tend to be rather firm on having a lower tech level than plate armor. Perhaps to reinforce the Roman comparison the makers of the films tried to echo the Lorica Segmentata armor in the 3rd Age Minas Tirith soldiers (not that the armor seemed to help in the movies). I suppose it depends on how generous/loose we want to be with the term 'mail' as it pertains to armor.
Hmm, I think thematically the HYW 10mm planned and Samurai WA already have make better fantasy human armies to face or ally with the Orcs, Dwarfs and BoneBlades WA has than Early Imperial Romans, if we where talking plans for 10mm Late Romans sure but for Early Imperial Romans I would want them to face more ancient mythic style monsters and enemies (cyclops, minotaurs, Foamians, etc. ) or at least in ancient era cosplay fantasy races. (I always thought straight no pants Roman troops in sandles showing up in medieval fantasy settings where everyone else wears pants and boots was just too dang odd🙄, if you really gotta have the armor and weapons fine but for heavens sake at least give them closed toe shoes and pants so they don't cut thier feet or freeze to death😆).
call me picky, but as a mainly fantasy player i really don't just want historicals to flesh out my human armies. obviously it's better than nothing, but most "accurate" historical armies don't look very good in a fantasy setting higher than lotr. this goes double with how hard it is to kitbash at 10mm, since you can't "fix" the goofy looking bits
@timbus the thirteenth Actually I find it depends on the army and the setting feeling your going for. I for gritty Middle Ages European fantasy force like WFB or Warmaster, any of the middle ages to reni sets work for human factions, even with the "goofy" bits, the only thing you will want is spell casters and maybe air cavalry.
D&D fantasy though does seem to beg for more than a history set can provide, but most of the suggestions I have seen for general fantasy humans go back things that are just historical options with a fantasy label, mostly knight and men at arms armor where a HYW, WOR or even just dark age Saxons kits out now would cover it.
A magitech setting though like "Wares Blade" would demade the foot troops, cavalry, etc. that would not be visully just historical warriors with plainer standardized armor.
I guess what I mean is that historicals really only work if you want generic fantasy. There's plenty of good options, but it feels like some of the coolest and most iconic 'looks' in fantasy (conan, excalibur, arabian nights) are weirdly underrepresented. My dream is that somebody does a full line of just fantasy humans, doing for fantasy humans what death fields has done for sci-fi ones. And in the meantime, historicals really only scratch that itch if you do a lot of extra kitbashing.
@timbus the thirteenth Hmm, I know this going to sound awful but most of the knights in the Excalibur film shots I keep being shown outside of maybe that one Villian in armor look like HYW or WOR armored knights to me (in fact its kinda of one the things I am complaining about, alot of rental armor Hollywood uses is almost cut and paste historical armor with minor alterations for comfort, not all of it but alot of it😆 I think Lady Hawk actually had more orginial fantasy armor than Excalibur oddly enough, but I suppose I need to actually watch Excalibur to make that final judgement).
Conan and Arabian Nights you have arguements though in the latter's case I would actually say giving the Afghans a brighter paint job would actually cover for a lot stuff in that theme as far as bandites and unarmored adventurers go.
To be honest I get the feeling if you want "true" fantasy armored knights, you need to design the knights with the idea of them being used for anything from low fantasy to a high "we raid machine gun nests just as much as we slay Dragons" magitech fantasy.
Okay, so I've been thinking about this a lot recently, so sorry if this becomes a rant. Basically, the problem with fantasy knights is that they tend to have historical and ceremonial "bits" all mixed together, with usually some extra pure fantasy parts. The three main armor types people tend to draw from are crusades era, azincourt era, and war of the roses/gothic era, all of which have existing models of varying quality.
Most fantasy knights tend to be based on gothic plate mail, with bascinets/greathelms and often crusade era surcoats. This makes them a pain in the ass to kitbash, especially because "historically accurate" gothic armor (like the perry models) tends to come with a much different style of surcoat that, imo, looks more like a baggy t-shirt. All of this together means that if I wanted to kitbash the average fantasy knight, I'd need to buy three different kits: one for heads and two for bodies. Also, I'd have to chuck out half of the gothic bodies if I was picky (which I am). Not only that, but then I wouldn't have any surcoats.
Then, there's also the issue of mainly fantasy/ceremonial armor styles, which look metal as hell and deserve models. Theres the fluted helm/maximillian armor, which is iconic. There's jousting armor/frogmouth helms. There's berserk's famous animal-styled helmets, which probably had some historical counterparts, but not a lot and not nearly as cool.
Anyhow, to cut a very, VERY long rant short: I am an armor nerd. I want more cool armor. Historicals are fun but they don't scratch enough of the itch. Also go watch Excalibur, it's a very fun movie even if its not very good.
Also, sorry about how long this got, my commute is really long lol.
