Is the time right for 'Not-Numenoreans"?


  • It might be worth pouncing on making some 'Not-Numenoreans' depending on how people feel about Amazons LoTR show by the end of it's season. So far I've seen mixed opinions about the quality of the writing/story telling - but the show looks amazing.

     

    And honestly, I fell in love with the design of the Numenoreans as soon as I them, and I'm sure others have as well.

    I don't think it woud be too hard to tweak the designs into something recognizable as them, but still distinct. Maybe 'Gondorize' the helmets slightly, make the studed leather subarmalis thing into pteruges kinds of things.

    The cavalry would probably be covered by making a late roman squamata armor cavalry set.

    Numenorean Guards

    Numenorean Cavalry



  • I have no interest in Amazon's wokefest TV show, but some Numenorean-style humans would be a great idea given the only GW models are four slightly-different monoposes packed in with a load of equally monopose Elves:

     

     

    Developing some infantry and cavalry in a similar style to these would be a welcome option for Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game players everywhere.


  • It is always time for that. 😊

    Most people I know of are converting Victrix Norman Kits to have Numenoreans, with great success, so a dedicated kit for a "high human" realm would probably be very successful. 


  • Both the kingdom of Arnor and Gondor were originated by Numenor, so at least for their early years, the troops could pass for either. Naturally a plastic multi-pose boxed set could be very useful for fantasy gaming/collection, given the flexibility of plastic, also if the market has yet a lot of good ones.


  • @Caratacus I feel like there is good design space to offer "light/medium" (except not really) infantry in the style of the Jackson trilogy Numenoreans, and "heavy" infantry in the style of the Amazon Numenoreans and have surprlse heads of both styles to equip as desired.

    As while I also don't think I'll be watching the show - it is really, really visually impressive, and I like the far more vibrant take on Numenor.


  • @H M haven't seen ep 4 yet. But visually ep 3 was good. 

    as far as minis. I can see the appeal. I would likely buy a box. Who is the target for this? Is it just lotr players? Merp roleplayers? Or would these be generic enough for people to use as any human faction in games like KoW? 

    I wonder if making them close to the actual Numenorians would be close enough for those actually wanting them for that purpose  and would they be too close for those wanting generic human fantasy. Seems like someone is always left unsatisfied and are usually the most vocal. 

    but I would buy a box. Especially if like the pictures shown there are both male and female. 


  • To me at least, they look good for general fantasy purposes as any kind of "Great Southern (Mediterranean) Empire" type thing.

    Like i could imagine those guys, though perhaps with different helms also being at home in the Oathmark universe, as a kind of Human version of the Elves statlines.


  • @H M Quick answer: nope.

    Longer answer: I want to see some good none historic platemail fantasy types that can work for Black powder/industiarl fantasy and VSF as well as classic fantasy (something along the lines of the lizardmen except human and armored ,maybe with a WW1 meets DnD vibe) before anymore fantasy  chain and scalemail "not romans", "not saxons", "not Franks", "not Vikings","not byzantines", etc. versions of Tolkien's LOTR Numenoreans which frankly are covered best by the Historical Norman sets sold by Conquest Games and Victrix.

    Also a good set of historical byzantines would cover "Great Southern (Mediterranean) Empire" for fantasy just as well  if not better than these guys and be a cooler set cause greek fire baby.


  • @Brian Van De Walker Well... No.

    I fully disagree with your entire sentiment, and I think you're being rather rude.

    There are already good plastic options for Byzantines, Imperial Romans, and increasingly (whenever both WGA and Victrix release thier kits) late Romans.

    Likewise, there are TONS of options plate armor, from older GW kits (and upcoming ones) to the huge amount of Perry Twins kits.

    What dont exist however, are the type of kits the show and the jackson movie (and GoT, to an extent) display: Realtistic fantasy. We get alot of realistic fantasy in most TV show and Movie 'historical' productions, but because they don't represent the reality of what was being used historical models tend to stay away, and fantasy producers take what ever design elements were there and typically turn them up to 11.

    Likewise, the very point of bringin up the show is they aren't Tolkiens Numenoreans - which, if you want to be pendantic, should look more like this:

    https://midgardakampanjer.wordpress.com/tag/numenoreans/

    If you want black powder gun men, it seems most peoples designs are based around Ashigaru - you could easilly kit bash based on some of the up coming Japanese kits from fireforge, or any of the numerous other sources of plate armor.

    But something distinctly realistic, but not historical doesnt really sit out on the market yet. Show me a depiction of real world soldiders that used a kit like the Numenoreans from the Amazon show for instance- I'd be keen to see just how close the historical matches with this, and how close either of them come to kits on the market.

    I'm well versed in what option there on the market for these things - and if I agreed with your sentiment "Also a good set of historical byzantines would cover "Great Southern (Mediterranean) Empire" for fantasy just as well  if not better than these guys and be a cooler set cause greek fire baby." - I wouldnt have bothered. But as it is, they are more ill fitting for that purpose than just kit bashing your so desired plate armored riflemen.


  • I would say that both Oathmark and Fireforge's Forgotten World line cover "Realistic fantasy" pretty well. 

     

     

    Is that what you meant?

     

     


  • If you want North Men, yes! If you want anything else, not so much. ;)


  • As i said above -I'm very well aware of what the options out there are, and I stand by my argument. The options for basically anything realistic fantasy that isnt a GoT Stark stand-in are pretty few a far between, witht he greater the distance from some location around the North Sea becomming scanter and scanter.


  • @H M I largely agee. As@Brian Van De Walker said there are options, but perhaps not the best ones. Fireforge Rus and byzantines. The Rus are in their older historical scale so a bit small, but the byzantines are in their newer "everything in our fantasy scale" scale. I purchased a box of https://fireforge-games.com/byzantines/694-byzantine-koursores.html to convert some of the soon to be delivered Scythians and Amazons to be heavier cavalry. Speaking of which, the torsos from the Scythians and Amazons match pretty well with the cavalry pics posted above. I went a bit heavy on that Kickstarter so have like 250+ Scythians and amazons coming. 

    that said, I think there is a market for a fantasy set as you have outlined. Mantic has been said to be shying away from doing humans as reportedly they have said there are plenty of options for humans already covered by historical makers. I would not likely buy mantic's anyway as I am not a fan of their plastic or minis in general but still makes me sad. 


  • Side note. I don't like the heads on the Oathmark human infantry. They seem way to big. I bought a sprue a year back for Frostgrave but the heads made them look silly, though with some WA Conq heads I am sure they would look fine. May have to get another sprue to try


  • @William Redford Have you any Gripping Beast or WGA models to compare with the Oathmark Human Infantry you have? I'm planning to get some for my Dark Ages British/Welsh army I'm starting to build and want to see if the head sizes are going to look particularly out of place compared with the Gripping Beast Welsh I have and the Gripping Beast Late Roman Cavalry I aim to get in future.

    @H M Apologies for the thread derailment, but @William Redford's last post really gave me an opportunity I couldn't ignore to ask him for another of his excellent comparison photos. Regarding your recent posts, though, I would say Fireforge's Byzantine infantry are great if you want to capture the scale armour look of the Amazon Numenoreans, I thought they would also look good as Tully troops (with appropriate Medieval head swaps of course) for Game of Thrones gaming.


  • @William Redford They do look good with spare Victorex. Hi Bill.


  • @William Redford Personally I love the Oathmark Human infantry. Virtually used all of the bodies now, so I am really tempted to acquire another box. Yeah, the heads are a bit big but love em anyways. I am using a lot of the Northstar kits to build my DnD setting around. Lot of fun to kitbash them (with the Stargrave kits too). 


    A knight and some infantry (including two archers who are not in this photo) for Rangers of Shadow Deep and to be used as town guard in DnD until I get another box (will make 10 swordsmen, 10 spearmen and 10 archers so I can field them in Oathmark as well).

     

    @Caratacus  

    WA Prussian reserve, Northstar Human infantry, WA Cannon fodder, WA Grognard


    WA Prussian reserve,  WA Cannon fodder, WA Grognard, Northstar Human infantry, Northstar Stargrave head


  • @Caratacus Hello. 

    I can take some new ones, but @Berggeit 's are pretty good. There is this thread Scale shot

    that I posted some pics of Oathmark too, and it talks a bit about the models in the pics. Here are teh pics from that thread just for comepleteness.

    @Berggeit Your pics dont look bad with them. I really do like the bodies and options. Its just the heads I dont like. 


  • @H M 

    Thanks for your link to midgardakampanjer blog -I totally forgot about it actually- to reminding us what an visionary and historically accurate artist Angus McBride had been.. and how faithfull Joe Dever had been when looking for models amonsgt all brands (historical and fantasy) back to the 80s to recreate the armies of Middle Earth (Minas Tirith/The Battle of Pelennor Fields in White Dwarf 53)

    Oh and do you know about https://davalegames.com/3dprinting/high-humans

     

     


  • @Caratacus Using Byzantines as proxies is actually getting away from the point I was making, which was about making something more generic based on the top picture of the infantry.

    I agree that the scale armored cavalry is probably servicable by something existing, though would be best suited by a scale Western Roman kit, rather than a (mostly) Lamellar kit like Fireforges - as Western Roman kit would incluce helmets closer to what the Numenorean cavalry is wearing. (Roman ridge ehelmets, and Spagenhelms would both be a decent proxy for them, from what I can see.)


  • Those Oathmark humans:


  • i've not watches the series yet (its on my list) but IMO most of the non-GW Numenorean/Gondorian/Arnorian figure needs can be done using the WGA late Roman figures and giving them different heads and shields. honestly the harder armies to do are the various Elves (especially the Noldor), where you usually run into aesthetic issues.. where most options tend to look like either the Warhammer elves/Eldar, or are mired in robinhoodish 'wood elf' aesthetics. though i wouldn't go as far as the JRPG feel of the Jackson film elvish armors as an alternative.


  • @Berggeit @William Redford Thanks for the comparison pics. I find it interesting how their heads do look big compared to the (for some reason tiny) Stargrave head and those from WGA's Napoleonics, but don't look so bad compared with those from the Cannon Fodder, Grognards, or even some of those belonging to the Conquistadors or Dark Age Irish. 

    Given this evidence I will still consider them.


  • @William Redford I never said "Fireforge byzantines" just a good set of them would work and I really think WA or Victrix could do a better job at byzantines than Fireforge (thats what I was implying😅).

    Also, no you can  pretty much cover any and all the "Good guy" human factions from the LOTR books (key word here being "books"😆) with Conqeust Games Normans right out of the box for the infantry with a good paint job (minus the Crazy helmet that was clearly for elites and may still be proxyable with norman helm, just add guady decorations).

    @H M

    Yeah your right, I was rather rude, sorry about that, but I disagree with you strongly as I am really bored of dark age style fantasy humans (they have been done to death!🙄) and that’s all anyone thinks of when it comes to LOTR🙄. 

    Generic realistic fantasy humans SHOULD NOT mean "guys that look like dark age warrior X with different helms", and that has been done twice now that way in plastic for "generic fantasy". Both fireforge and oathmark did them, and as you youself have pointed out THEY WHERE BOTH VERY CLEARLY Game Of Thrones the show Starks inspired.  I am going to point out further that the show basically did house Stark as Saxon warriors or crusader era men at arms  in padded armor with different helmets.

     Amazon's LOTR guys, honestly just judging by the pics they look like they are dressed in Chinese and/or more likely Middle Eastern Armor (complete with Chinese and/or Middle Eastern helmets, even the horse armor looks like a cut paste from those cultures). I would rather just have Chinese or Middle Eastern guys done for history; they would be better fantasy men at arms than Amazon's LOTR anything (they would both certainly have cooler weapon options).

     

    Also I just don't see much difference between that and doing something inspired by Jackson LOTR (yeah its different armor but its same concept: take a historical warrior and maybe change the head). And since you brought GW up as an arguement against platemail, don't they already do Peter Jackson's version in 28mm?

    It's time to do fantasy human sets that are not clearly from Dark Ages or so close to real life history they would be better done as a headswap sprue for historical sets at most.

    Besides what we all really need out of a fantasy men at arms/knight set is a base body that won’t look odd kitbashed with a wide array of different arms and weapons for an equally wide array of settings  (We need human sets that will work equally well for fantasy games that have tanks and flying machines in them like Sludge and KOW as well genric "LOTR style" squarebase fantasy games).

    And all of the LOTR options  showed thus far would look odd with just any old arms and weapons except maybe the "breastplates with suns guys" that you seem to like, and it would be smarter to do something more streamlined with less skirt for the main bodies like this: 

    Or this:

     

    And I think there should be more full enclosed helmets, there is already a ton of open faced helms.


  • @Brian Van De Walker I don't think your ever going to get away from plastic soldiers basically always being x-period warrior with a diffetne helmet. Even your examples boil down to a west europeans 14th/15th century knight, but ones is in a loin cloth and abandanna on a bad hair day, and the other is poor with sword that screams 'compensating' ;) . This is meant jokingly, but there is a point to that critique.

    Like design wise I would cast your gaze more at late Roman inspirations for the Amazon Numenoreans. While you may see Chinese/Middle eastern, I see a pretty conscious push to try to merge the fashions of late antiquity with medieval fashion from Italy and Byzantium, which I think is a bit more on the money. (I mean, the only thing 'Chinese' about them is that they are wearing robes under thier armor, for example.) But they are just as unique design wise as your examples, but in a different way.

    Trying to argue one is better than the other is dumb. It's all subjective. We've talked enough to where I think we both understand we've got very different aesthetic tastes, and that's fine - there's room for everyone in this hobby, after all, but we also have to look sqaurely at the fact that we aren't going to convince each other that our ideas are good. And that's ok!

    The question I posed isnt actually if the designs are good (though again, I do love the infantry) - but if it would be smart to make a set based on thier design.

    That would boil down to

    -will/is the show popular enough to get people wanting some sets

    and

    -are the designs universal enough to have uses beyond just LoTR stuff?

    While the verdict is very much out on the first, I think the second is probably a yes just from how distinct they look from everything else out on the market, and how hard it is to pin down thier influences, they are wonderfully generic in a way, and yet also distinct because nothing else out there is exactly like them. I get that you're going to disagree with the inherent value of doing a kit like that, but the fact that so many companies produce Romans, Vikings, Normans etc means there is a market for new versions of them -and likely- more fanciful but grounded takes on fantasy warriors like those Numenorean spearmen. I fall into that camp, for example.

    But, I'd rather end on that I have no hard feelings about it, and hope you don't either - but let's just understand that nature of each others aesthetic tastes, and understand we likelly won't be convincing each other of much. ;)


  • @H M no! Only one of you can win the title of Ultimate miniature champion! 

    Don't mind me... just taking a moment to escape from work. You both have solid arguments and I would buy either of your proposed sets based on those arguments. So ... yeah... good job on that. 

    but the winner and best is... just kidding. Yeah again, don't mind me. :)


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