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  4. Here is a poll on Elves read the intro first

Here is a poll on Elves read the intro first

What theme would like to see for elves?
  • HM

    I think you fail to appreciate how universal most elements of armor actually are, and how rare it is for any particular element to be associated with a single culture. -But- what we can say (or at least I do) is to try and take apart the various influences that are pretty obviously at play with how games workshop designed those elves, and it's pretty obvious medieval central asian motiffs weren't among them. There's probably room to argue that some ancient near eastern infleunce was in there, but the way high eleves are depicted by GW is pretty clearly a grab bag of things.

    I also think you're chasing ghosts with alot of those photos. I've seen several of them siruclating before, but have NEVER seen any actual archaeology to back up that 'chinese corinthian helm' (which to me looks like a pretty clearly modern construction to begin with) - and most of your other modern photos are equally suspect, looking more like LARP costuming efforts than an attempt at making something that reflects a historical reality.

    Don't get me wrong - I love making a good fantast costume, and mixing and matching influences to create something new - but don't parade a bunch of modern fantasy enthusiast's photos around as proof of anything. And if you insisnt on doing so, then show me the references that proove what you're showing me is real.

    Now in regards to the numenorean photo above, I can at least parse that one out directly. You'll note that it's a combination of real work influences, from a bronze musculata chest piece that has been merged with a more medieval looking chest piece, bronze greaves and helms that look like a cross between A Roman nasel helm (used by late Romans, but obsiouly not unique to them) and with cheek pieces that suggest an earlier Roman design. Belts with bronze plates that look worthy of being a real reeenactors kit of goodies, but clothing and underarmor that suggest a early or mid medieval design influence. They certainly are mediterranean in design, but grab from a plethora of time periods to make a combined look - similar to what GW designers did with the High Elves.

  • BVD

    @H M  I don't mean to be rude or offenseive but all that coming from the man who thought the alpha and omega of forgien armor research was Osprey books till this thread,😆.

    A lot of the pics I showed are from museums or well researched artwork, books and prop shops which vary from reenactors to costume dramas😉. Though you are right that is not true of all of them, a few like the roman archer which probably are trash RP cosplay, the one Attila the Hun costume party outfit is not real though in this context the crazy helmet is not an unbelievable evolution for an elf sculptor to make given the other references of Huns I have seen. I well admit the Tang Dynasty royal guard armor with "Corinthian helm" is likely to be more movie prop art than the real thing (so you do have an argument that it isn't real and I apologize for that😅), However given we are talking elves I think you should still be open to the possibility that the sculptor saw a Kung Fu movie with badly done period costumes one day and said to himself "those would make right fine elves"*😉.

    While I agree that some elements of armor are universal and that the GW High Elves are likely composites of several diffrent cultures,  I can see so many Asian and middle eastern influnces in GW elves myself I am probably going to ignore or counter any source you bring up saying otherwise unless your source is the original sculpters themselves saying they are gerco Romans and that it is only western influnces (in which case they failed spectacularly to show off thier source material considering the Hun and Persian Helmets that look far closer to the egg helm they gave the dang elves than anything in Roman or Europe 🤣):

     

     

     

     

    As to the numenorean, they are pretty clearly middle eastern or Turkish influnced, admittedly a good chunk of the middle east and Turkey had Hellenist armor influnces for much longer than Europe  which is what your picking up on (pretty common knoweldge really  I am surprised your even arguing on that point🤔),  I just think the guy in the prop department was wholesaling it armor culture wise instead bit and piecing. The decrotive dingbat on the helmets is the dead give away that there is some middle eastern influnce thorwn in at least if not just a cut and paste painted bronze:

    The Greeks and Romans never really had those, or at least in the numbers to make it notable.

    *(the Dark Elves really give off that sort of vibe given thier gear).

     

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  • HM

    Where or when did I say that the Osprey books were the end all be all of armor research? You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

    What I did was assume that Osprey books about central and east asian subjects came into publication later than they actually did - not exactly anything of note by itself. I would maintain that Osprey books are probably a pretty good introduction into the arms and armor of many peoples over various time periods. (But they arent the end all be all)

    You post tons of pictures, but they don't really serve your point - you post pictures who orgins are spaced far and wide over both time and place. You do realize that armor styles and technology spread and blended into each other, yes?

    Like good gods- if you can't see that the Numenorean helmets in the amazon TV show are basically back designing the armor from the movie (look at the helmets of Elendil and Isildur in the battle prologue, as well as over all armor design - the helmets deigned to look that way they do as to invoke a crown, not really middle eastern digbats) then what can I say? You're going to find a Turk under every rock!

    I know you're passionate about the subject, and I respect that passion - but not every armor design is going to boil to down to what central asian nomads were wearing, particularly when the elements are either generic, or it's a lot easier and more obvious to pull a design apart into aesthetics that we know that designers are both familar with, and want to channel. (ie, for GW elves they are both a take on Atlanteans and Greeks given thier roll within the lore).

    However, I think, funny enough that we're on the same side at the end of it -both of us seem bored with GW style elves, regardless of thier aesthetic origins and would like to see something different. That's worth just taking at face value, I think.

     

  • MD

    I think we've pretty much discussed this to death by now and our opinions are pretty clear; thanks for a good back and forth, Brian!

    At the end of the day, you can probably email Jes Goodwin and ask him what influenced his design choices. He's written about the Eldar, but I haven't found any interview that touches on the 90's High Elf overhaul he was larely responsible for. 

    (And I agree the RoP Numenoreans are pretty Ottoman)

  • BVD

    @H MIf your complaining about my nomads and Turks, now you know how I feel about your Greeks and Romans you seem to see in every nook and cranny like that’s all there is to non-medieval European armor influences in western fantasy media (despite Thief Bagdad being a classic of Western cinema 🤣). I don’t know what to tell you but if Amazon got the helmet dingbats from the movies then the movies either got them from later north Eastern Europeans (key words Eastern) or more directly from a Middle Eastern inspiration that they threw in with the Scandinavian, etc. motifs in the films and just judging by the very islamic style design of the Amazon ones, it’s more likely be middle eastern in that case.

     As to GW, if their elves are supposed to be Atlantis themed, then they are more likely based on the Hittites (as @Mark Dewis Showed earler), Assyrians, or one of the other Old Testament baddie middle eastern tribes you hear about in Sunday School (or find in the Osborn World History Books) which actually makes more sense than Greeks or Romans since they generally looked like this and I believe where more tied to the Atlantis mythos than Greece before the 90’s:  

     The other possible source is they could have been low key knocking off the Petal Throne RPG from the 70’s which is ,mostly a mix of said Hittites,Assyrians,etc. plus Aztec and South East Asian clothing/armor motifs which changing the subject does give off a real alien vibe that could work elves:

  • MD

    While there are few detailed armour descriptions in LoTR, there is this verse of the Song of Earendil:

    "In panoply of ancient kings,
    in chainéd rings he armoured him;
    his shining shield was scored with runes
    to ward all wounds and harm from him;
    his bow was made of dragon-horn,
    his arrows shorn of ebony;
    of silver was his habergeon,
    his scabbard of chalcedony;
    his sword of steel was valiant,
    of adamant his helmet tall,
    an eagle-plume upon his crest,
    upon his breast an emerald."

    Just thought I'd thow that one in, since it seems to match up to GW's Elf designs pretty well. Chalcedony the stone seems impractical as a scabbard material, so the Professor likely just means it was green, or decorated with it.

  • Benjamin Hayward

    I went with "desert" for Dark Sun.  I'd take pretty much anything but the Tolkien-esque (a la GW) or "standard D&D-"type; I still dig those, but there are beyond plenty of those types to choose from out there.

  • JTam

    I voted for Bronze Age "Greek" Elves because I Love me some Warhammer Fantasy Battle High Elves.

  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker It's just that I find your claims unrealistic; there's a pretty clear design evolution not only of how GW's elves look, but of the place they occupy in the lore, which is as early empire builders and colonizers from a place that looks like Atlantis, and has rather on the nose references to exactly what we might expect to find as the base references for how they were physically designed - that is, places such as 'Chrace" and "Ellyrion" as references to Thrace and Illyria, "Caledor" as a potential reference to Caledon (Greece) or Caledonia (Scotland), Eataine as reference to the "Edaine" of Tolkiens worc, "Cothique" as a reference to Calrk Ashton SMiths "Zothique" (which I have also seen referenced to as "Xothique" at some point), Avelorn as a reference to Avalon of Arthurian myth, Tiranoc as a wonderfully 'Celtic sounding' name, and even Saphery may serve as an oblique reference to Ophir (also known more rarely as 'Sophir').

    It's not that I see Greeks and Romans every where - it's just that I have enough working knowledge of what the influences on these product lines were to be able to make a combination of statements and educated guesses regarding them.

    And don't mistake me- I have no particular love of the designs, as to me those cultural cues don't make much sense for where the Elves myth originated from, thier functions in those myths, or how the concept of elves has evolved into the more modern day notion of them. I would in fact love and welcome some genuinely Turkish design influnced elves. But I dont think the GW kits count as those.

  • BVD

    @H M Well this arguement has changed my mind on the GW elves being Turks, but mostly because they look more like Earler Hitties. Lets just agree to disagree on "what inspired GW high elves"😆. 

    I will say that Atlantis is associated with a boatload of different cultures besides the Greeks, with Ancient Greeks own accounts of that mythical nation making it out to be a completely alien enemy culture to the Greeks themselves that may or may not have ties to Egypt and the almost mythical seapeople (not to mention the sculpting team at GW could have combined Atlantis with the Naacal of Mu which for a fictional mythic tribe has clearer cultures wrongfully tied to it😉).

    The GW elves themselves really just don’t look Greek to me evolution of design or not, since Greeks look like this😆:

    Also @JTam ,  if the elves are going to be “Greek” then I would argue they should look like the boys above with no pants and no bows in the kit, because “archers are cowards” trope is strong with fantasy Greek warriors😆. (Yeah that was joke about the no pants,etc. but elves really shouldn't be Greek🤣).

    Joking and disagreements about other companies stuff aside, proper Turkish armor, though not my first choice would look good for elves, particularly if they went with mix of non-uniformed armor bodies instead of the typical unreal uniformed regimental look High Elves are normally given.😉

  • JTam

    @Brian Van De Walker 

    You're making this way too hard.

    They live in pseudo Atlantis, they wear Corinthian style helmets, fight in phalanxes, and have fun Greek accents on the hem of their tunics.  

  • GM

    Wow  who knew? Elves and their diversity was such a termoil And heres me out on his own all I wished for was Elves for today with a hint of their past Heritage? " I`ve had that have I not😭😕😺

  • MD

    I mentioned this discussion to a friend of mine whose a pretty hardcore Tolkien fan.

    He says when he first saw the GW high elves in the 90's his first thought was "Oh. They gone for the Numenorean look".

  • BVD

    @JTam

    They wear egg helmets that the Greek never wore (those are not Corinthian Helmets and never will be! even with the high fantasy argument😆), They have kite shields that the Greeks never developed or used, They wear armored skirted jackets I am pretty sure the Greeks didn't even have the technical aptitude and resources to even make, They have Burgundian style armor cuirass over that , and they fight  more like a Chinese or Scottish sheild wall or even later pike blocks with two handed spearmen behind the guys with sheilds than a true Greek phalanx where every spearmen had a large wooden or bronze round shield. (Also accents on hems are kind of universial, the only thing Greek about the elf one maybe is the shade of blue).

    But if you still insistent on that all being Greek somehow, fine I won't argue with you anymore on that.😆

    However if the elves are going to be Greek I want to see round shields with no long skirted tunics,  scale or chainmail,  or pointy egg helms from hell (i.e. no GW elves 2.0, WA can do better than that).

    Personally though I think the Filipino pirate idea was better.

    @Mark Dewis @Geoff Maybury Honestly Tolkien's elves sound more like the Oathmark design than GW's really with the possible exception of the chalcedony use:

     

     

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  • HM

    The point that is being made pretty much over and over again is they are a hodge podge of different things, mostly western and in common with the back ground lore inspirations and influences that gives -on the whole- most people a "Greek' impression.

    I feel like you keep your position because you're looking at design from a literalist perspective- that is, [A] looks entirely like [B], the thing that supposedly influenced it, or it isn't influence by [B] at all. This is a rather unreasonable position to take in the world of fantasy designs and the influences and inspirations upon them - which are often myriad and multiple. We see this in pretty much every major fantasy franchise both in the East and West, and even in many of the various examples you've posted of anime characters in various threads here on these forums.

    If the only thing you're really looking for is direct 1:1 design translations of historical human costumes and armor onto elves you might as well just practice making elf ears out of greenstuff and be done with it that way. But I don't think that's actually what interests you, and so it's worth not only asking people to look at your ideas and opinions with open eyes, but also look at other peoples ideas and opinions the same. It should be eye opening to you that the GW elves are as widely regarded as 'Greek looking' as they are, and that this is an understanding which extends all the way into the studio of games workshop itself - because it's intentional, to a greater or lesser degree.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's good - as I've said time and time again, I think it's dumb, and I wish they didn't look like that. I would actually appreciate a design that made them look more east asian, as the modern pop culture view of Elves is alot more in line with modern pop culture tropes of Japanese culture (long lived ultra perfectionists seeking spiritual purity.) But it's not worth trying to convince everybody it (Greekish GW elves) isn't true.

  • William Ings

    Greeks history didn't end in 300b.c.e.

    Warhammer elves aren't restricted to one time period. They are a blend of fasions with a heavy fantasy polish.

  • BVD

    @William Ings Maybe, but Byzantines are a cop out since their own armor is clearly more influenced by their Eastern and middle Eastern neighbors at the points your showing then anyone in europe except maybe the Vikings, not the other way around (Hellenist civilization may as well have ended with Western Rome as far as armor design goes😆).

     @H M  Whatever lets talk  about other options since "high elves" does not equal "greek elves" on this poll.

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  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker It doesnt help that you keep shooting yourself in the foot with arguments that seem to pull everything eastward; like with armor design you state that Byzantine armor becomes influenced by eastern neighbors, but that's a cliche without any clear evidence. Lamellar armor for example was known in Italy from the 5th or 4th centuries BCE, as evidenced directly by the Etruscan sculpture "The Mars of Todi", and Lorica segmentata makes alot more sense for how and why it developed when that is taken into account. 

    However, the change in form of lamellar armor as used by the late Romans and Byzantines, and its widespread adoption makes sense for a military the was taking on a more cavalry based character. [This is because due to how its constructed, scale armor is more vulnerable to upward thrusts that can slide under the scales. This isnt a huge problem persay for infantry, particularly fighting against spears or longswords, but it's a giant problem for cavalry expecting to fight spear wielding infantry. Lamellar armor, as constructed by the late Romans and Byzantines, is designed very specifically to to negate that exact vulnerability.

    This may seem pedantic, but the point of do your research before speaking (words I need to heed more on occasion as well ;) and never, ever, ever just rely on modern pictures and pop-interpretations of cultural influence and design.

  • HM

    (All that said, there is a very clear trend of Byzantine and Islamic armories influencing each other, and both being influenced by Turkic tribes in the era of weaponry, though again the weapons themselves become optimized for the styles of cavalry warfare in the region.)

  • JTam

    @H M 

    Reference:

    I did not know that.  Fascinating.  Thank You.

  • Miyuso

    So a while back I was working on ideas for a High Seas 28mm game with various races who fought battles on boats (like boarding actions). My thought for the elves was essentially Barbary Pirates made a little more fantasy. 

  • ADC

    @Miyuso This was my idea when voted for Sea Elves, logically they should be not armoured and light kitted, after all being in armour on a boat is a little too dangerous.

  • BVD

    @Miyuso Barbary Pirate elves would be awesome, though to be honest I would perfer that for dwarves.  That said pirate elves of any sort (other than Hellenst) would be cool.

    @Alessio De Carolis Lightly kitted out  elves would great. Maybe with harpoons?

    @H M Lamellar armour is from central and east Asia with eastern Europeans adopting it due to contact, which is all common knowledge with the earliest known* example being Neo-Assyrian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour

     The Etruscan culture was wiped out completely by its neighbors with vindictive  throughness rarely seen in history, and the armor examples in art we have now where only very recently rediscovered. The Lorica Segmentata was developed much later well after the fall of the old republic and was likely inspired more due to contact with non-European lamellar  using cultures already there like Carthage, Egypt and Persia (it was also abandoned pretty quickly by historical standards and while the romans did wear it sometimes wear lamellar in the east, they are not really noted for it 😆not as much as the GW elves are anyway😆).

    Edit: Fixed, Thank you I have been too busy to really comment this last holiday season or look at comments, Your right that was confusing I forgot to put "known" before "example".

     

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  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker You have no idea what you're talking about, I don't mind calling you out on it.

    The Etruscans were not only an important ethnic group in the republic, but continued to be during the Empire, even as they were culturally assimilating to the Romans.

    Your "vindictiveness rarely seen in history" seems rather out of place when many of the major players in the late republic, such as Maecenas and Agrippa were themselves Etruscan, Emperor Claudius a proud Etruscan descendant, and multple later Emperors hailing from Etruria directly. (Emperors Decius, Herennius Etruscus, Trebonius and Volusianus - though there are probably a few more kicking about. The Severan dynasty has an Etruscan connection if I remember correctly.)

    Likewise, it seems your argument is rather mixed up- I'm unlcear, am I supposed to believe that lamellar is supposed to come from Assyria, or from the far east? And am I supposed to take it for granted that Lorica Segmentata just appeared ut of nowhere with no prior development or evolution, rather than as a development of armor techniques that were already present on the Italian peninsula?

    Art History is distorted. It can't be taken at face value. The depictions of soldiers and arms and armor are all the result of cultural sterotypes and propaganda, and it's difficult have a realistic conclusion of who influenced who based on it. We know, for instance, that the Etruscans even during the period of the republic when they were serving either in, or allies to the Roman army had a strong bias against depicting themselves in Roman arm in art, preferring to depict themselves in a more hellenistic manner. Trajans column, if taken at face value, would make you think that all of these soldiers had nieat orderly uniforms, and that Legionaries and auxilla troops wore totally distinct equipment.

    Moreover, you're to have me believe that despite the human body being the same, only one culture could figure out layering medium sized metal plates over each other to make armor? That's absurd.  The nature of the human mind and body, combined with the nature of the trouble we make for ourselves lends to humans re-inventing the same concept time and time again, and the less abstract the idea, the more similar it ends up looking in execution. It's not so different from the concept of roof tiles - there are also some people who seem dead set on making a stand about a unitary origin for roof tiles, but step away from the heat of the argument, and that idea doesn't make sense - the conditions that lead to the need for rooftiles are all over the planet, and the basic idea of needing layers of materials to create humble thatch roof stretch across the myriads of human societies. The idea to make them out of a permanent material instead of a biologically degradeable one isn't a stroke of genius - it's just the humble wisdom of practicality. There isn't really a good argument for why armor doesn't work that way, particularly since we see it change in relation to what weapons are being used in a particular time period. 

    Where are your archaeological examples of Egyptian and Carthaginian lamellar then? Where was lamellar armor being used when it supposedly influenced the Etruscans to make thiers, or the Romans to make segmentata (which is essentially a lamellar in how it functions)? To my knowledge, there isnt anything like a direct line of evidence in support of this "common knowledge" - which again, seems like it's just lifted from people looking at art history books and making conclusions based on that alone. "Common knowledge" is not always correct - particularly in contexts where having specialist knowledge is important to come to more accurate conclusions.

    As a side note, a few extra thing that don't work in the context of all that would be:

    1) While I don't know exactly when the Mars of Todi was found, it's been known since at least the 1920's (Edit: It's been known since 1835)

    2) I'm not sure where your ideas on the use of Lorica Segmentata come from, but it was in use all around the empire. Some of it's most notable examples come from finds in Britain and Germany.

    3) The Mars of Todi is not unique, and there are other example of Etruscans/ Etrusco-Romans in art wearing it. I can provide some examples if needed.

    4) Nothing here is of relevence to this thread, so while I don't really care to continue, I'm also not really keen on a rather skewed view of cultural transmission. The idea that people are smart or creative enough to innovate the same thing multiple times in different places isn't a profound one, and I think it holds a lot more answers to the hows and whys of history then the A---?---C model that pops up very often.

    5) I will go ahead and make a note that this an area where I have had direct academic access to, which is why my knowledge in the subject is a bit more robust than most war gamers. We can continue this discussion, but it would be better in its own thread rather than derailing yours, which should just be about elves and pleasantly talking about them, rather than heated discussions over the development and transmissions of Italo-Roman armor styles.

    Edit: Mentioning my base of knowledge isn't intended to sacre you off of arguing, but it is in the interest of fairness. If you're going to dance, you should know the skill of your partner.

  • MD

    It's also a bit of a pointless exercise in any case. I'm also guilty of prolonging the discussion, but at the end of the day the designers that DID lock in the GW Elf look that has been influential (Jess Godwin and Aly Morrison) are actual people you can email. Anyone DESPERATE to know if they drew from Greek, Assyrian, Korean or Turkish designs should probably do so.

    I like the idea of Elf Pirates, though. 

  • GM

    @H M @Mark Dewis So I really don`t get my "Modern Elfs with a hint of there past Dam"😿😾

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  • MD

    @Geoff Maybury head swap territory. What you need are modern humans to head swap them onto 😉

  • ADC

    @Mark Dewis Not always, elves are lighter than humans, we are bulkier than them, so not all the human bodies would be apt for a body snatching (not every woman is as K. Blanchett!)😆

  • MD

    @Alessio De Carolis I have any number of different games that say that elves are shorter than humans, are taller than humans or much the same size. So it's fairly subjective. Agreed, they are generally portrayed on the skinny side, but human variation overlaps Elvish variation in most settings. 

    But yes. There would be some bodies that would not suit. And the heads need to be sized accordingly - Oathmark Elven Light Infantry heads on Perry Civil War bodies would look grotesque. Even though the latter are definitely not bulky guys.

  • ADC

    @Mark Dewis Exactly, also in literature depends from the author, f.e. in P. Anderson's The Broken Sword elves are (lightly) shorter than middle ages humans, on the contrary Tolkien's elves are hinted being (always lightly) taller than humans

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  • BVD

    @Geoff Maybury The main reason to do Modern elves is not their body type but the compound bows:

    crazy modern swords:

    And cool modern tactical gear:

    Also you could have your eleven sword maids be actual maids just for fun😆:

    Yeah that last part is a bit of a joke😆but the point is more costume themes to play with.

    @H M Sorry for not getting back to you sooner I have been busy the last few months, to clarify my argument to you it is that Eastern cultures in general (not just one of them, but most if not all of them) developed lamellar armor first before Europeans made any and that any Hellenist civilization would have been more likely to just adopted it from their non-Hellenist Eastern neighbors who they had contact with (like the Persians) rather then reinvent it themselves. That said your right this is not the thread for that but if you want to argue the point further, sure I will put a thread in the “first Empire” thread if you want.

     Also I will admit that my knowledge of the Etruscans is limited to mostly a museum exhibit experance I visited back in high school, however if you knew how to dance like you say you do, you would have shown your extra point 5 documents you mentioned instead of making a long unreferenced essay 😉. That said I think Etruscans would be another good separate thread topic as well particularly since you’re the second person on this forum to make that claim about them with limited real backup (all I am actually finding supporting the Roman influence are wiki articles based on suspect claims from long dead roman historians/propagandists so it would be good to see something harder).

    @Alessio De Carolis @Mark Dewis For practicality I would argue to go with body size/proportions matching WA’s historical scale humans for elves with maybe adult men’s manga art style facial feature with pointy ears being as alien as its for a couple reasons with the big two being:

    1. Slender alien features and proportions are a hit or miss with most folks (mantic with their stick people elves are love it or hate it sculpts and we have already gone over GW ew sculpts, but no one complains about reaper elves that are more or less the same proportions as their human counterparts).
    2. Making them kitbashable with WA’s historical scale/proportion humans minis would cover a lot of elf wants and still give the “slender look” for those using Heroic scale humans if done right  

    Beyond that there is the fact that over half the elves in manga, comic books, live action film, and even just non-visual written literature are depicted simply humans with pointy ears with no real size difference means the time of odd sizing them is up for setting neutral fantasy wargaming figures.

     

  • GM

    @Brian Van De Walker "NICE"  brings the temp right down to Cool and Stay Frosty.

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  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker I don't think you're really getting it - it's rarely about "who did it first" - it doesnt matter in the slightest. There is sometimes an inference that culture A influenced the material designs of culture B, but in something like armor that is terribly difficult to prove because the strengths and weaknesses of both materials usable and the human body are universal. Multiple people in multiple places will come up with similar, if not the same solutions to both problems and designs.

    The example of Etruscan lamellar is an example to help evidence that point - that there are in fact seperate channels for the evolution of armor designs, and not everything can actually be traced to 'prior design'. That's an outdated concept that belongs back in the 19th century.

    Now, if you want evidence of Etruscan culture and civlization I might recommend "Etruscan Identity and Service in the Roman Army: 300–100 B.C.E. " https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.3764/aja.121.2.0275?searchText=etruscan&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Detruscan%26efqs%3DeyJjdHkiOlsiYW05MWNtNWhiQT09Il0sImRpc2MiOltdfQ%253D%253D&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6744_basic_search%2Ftest-1&refreqid=fastly-default%3Aa0f22435ef6bd270d443f3f67d0a8eff

    This is a read that alone should prove enlightening, bothin terms of how the Etruscans viewed themselves, and how the Etruscans were hardly "wiped out completely by its neighbors with vindictive  throughness rarely seen in history" and were instead an integral part of the Roman state, and slowly -sadly- culturally assimilated over time.

    Further evidence of this would be how the Etruscans as a group are considered during the reign of Augustus- be it from a very positive portrayal in the Aeneid, to the promotion of elements of Etruscan traditons in Roman religion, as part of state promotion of 'unity' of the Italian cultures of the Late Republic/Early Empire period.

    Sergestus and Tarchon in the "Aeneid" 

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/27564096?searchText=etruscan&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Detruscan%26efqs%3DeyJjdHkiOlsiYW05MWNtNWhiQT09Il0sImRpc2MiOltdfQ%253D%253D%26groupefq%3DWyJzZWFyY2hfYXJ0aWNsZSIsImNvbnRyaWJ1dGVkX3RleHQiLCJzZWFyY2hfY2hhcHRlciIsInJldmlldyIsInJlc2VhcmNoX3JlcG9ydCIsIm1wX3Jlc2VhcmNoX3JlcG9ydF9wYXJ0Il0%253D%26pagemark%3DeyJwYWdlIjo0LCJzdGFydHMiOnsiSlNUT1JCYXNpYyI6NzV9fQ%253D%253D&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6744_basic_search%2Ftest-1&refreqid=fastly-default%3A3187f9329aa44174d095f71e8b2c6017

    Tarchon Etruscus: Alter Aeneas 

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1316578?searchText=(etruscan)%20AND%20(etruscan%20aeneid)&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Detruscan%252Baeneid%26efqs%3DeyJjdHkiOlsiYW05MWNtNWhiQT09Il0sImRpc2MiOltdfQ%253D%253D%26prq%3Detruscan%26swp%3Don&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6744_basic_search%2Ftest-1&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ae9c19e3b13e878c5ab373294506dbfe1

    0 likes
  • MD

    Platonic Ideal elves.

    So perfectly shaped that all other depictions are hollow shadows cast against the walls of the cave.

    That's if you wanted to get *properly* Classical...

    😉

  • William Ings

    I found these guys while window (screen?) shopping around for STLs. They reminded me of this thread.

    Guy has a lot of cool content.

  • ADC

    @Brian Van De Walker Right, making them compatible with other brands would enlarge the market, perhaps only the bodies, either male & female, could be lightly more slender than humans, the arms could be identical to others, as GW did with squats' arms.

    P.s. in the new Stargrave female Mercenaries boxed set, there are a pair of heads with horns, but cutting them and filling with GS could pass for space elves.

  • BVD

    @Alessio De Carolis I would just be happy with them being  the same proprotions as and working with WA's historical line figures honestly.

    You would get decently sculpted elves that will work for most of the "Herioc is only good scale" nutjob crowd (they will look slender enough next to Northstar, GW, etc. heroic scales) and they will be warmly recieved by those like me wanting to go with more historicscale proportion mini for thier fantasy gaming cause that looks more serious/belivable  and has more setting options.

    Likewise that way the head swaps (which is the important part) would likely already be compatable with most of the "sword and bow" era historical minis on the market like Gripping Beast, Victrix, etc., not to mention  WA's own WW1/2 and Napolionic mini lines.

  • Yronimos Whateley

    I'm a bit inclined for dark elves toward an idiosyncratic, somber, gothic take on the Regency Period's tail-coats, knee breeches, high collars, cloaks, top hats and tricorns, powdered wigs and masquerades - it's something a bit out of time and place for any era, a bit stilted and alien, with a touch of madness:  that would seem to me to fit elves and other faerie folk well, the stuff of banshees and ghouls, of changelings and the Wild Hunt:  to me, long before I ran into Tolkien or D&D, elves were always simply goblins by a more polite name, and were never really natural creatures of this or any fantasy world, but something otherworldly....:

     

    I say, put elves in something inspired by a gothic take on Regency Period costumes, and arm them up with a choice of fantasy and historical weaponry and sci-fi stuff for use with Death Fields.

     

    0 likes
  • BVD

    @Yronimos Whateley You know that might work out better as "Vampires and hunters", though Elves in late napoleonic outfits with spider and bat motifs would be cool. Try adding it to the Vox Populi section.

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