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  4. Here is a poll on Elves read the intro first

Here is a poll on Elves read the intro first

What theme would like to see for elves?
  • BVD

    Intro

    In case you couldn't tell by by the absured number of options, this is an unofficial poll since I don't work for WA and I don't know if they currently have any plans one way or the other on elves (i.e. move forward with the elves they already showed, go back to drawing board, or not bother) but I thought it would be a fun to poll to make.

    So let’s talk some ground rules for the thread😉.

    First be sure to look over all the options first before voting as I am going to experiment a little with poll option placement (i.e. the more traditional options are near the bottom before the “other” option and I have 2 “do them as throw in headswaps” options  right after “other”😉).

    All of this is more a reference to cloths/armor or lack thereof and basic theme rather than facial appearance,  though if the dreaded Hugo Weaving-Cat Hybrids are brought up as a good idea in the form of the “Elves need an alien appearance and should be like cats” argument once again I will insist on “Anime”style facial features instead (no more ugly elves and yes I am going to be stubborn about it🤣).  

    For the sake of simplicity we are talking the over all theme of a “national fighting force”such as an army or tribal warband as opposed to “adventuring party” (yes I have seen this sort of topic go 3 to 4 ways because of that, it was not pretty😆).

    Likewise we are not talking about “female vs. male” bodies persay as that’s another poll that should be done at later date (probably next month to New Years would be the time to do such a poll).

    Also all the options on this poll are either based on depictions I have seen or suggestion I have heard elsewhere before for elves. So if you have a problem with an option don’t try to pick fight about it, simply don’t vote for it.  

  • Steven StGeorges

    @Brian Van De Walker 

    👍

    Quite a nice pool idea Brian, I pick "Other" but lots of options were appealing to me like Desert, South East Asian, Steppe Nomads, Scrap Armor... so many amazing themes not really available around.. 🤔

    Going to take a look at results when back from my Egyptian sojourn next month.  🧐

  • MD

    "Normal" pseudomedieval Elves are already pretty well catered for by GW and Oathmark and others. Although the same could be said for the Goblins, I guess.

    Unless you have a particular new look for the bodies (naked, draped with leaves, Elizabethan, high tech space elfs etc), it's probably better done as an upgrade sprue or head options in the appropriate kits.

    Would most likely work best for WGA within Death Fields, as Space Elfs of some type. Sleek jumpsuits, more sophisticated looking tech. Jetpacks. Girls on the sprue. Make them useful for general science fiction use with reverse head swaps from Human kits.

  • BVD

    @Steven StGeorges Oof, I should have added "state below" for other. 🤣 I well try to fix that.

    Edited: fixed, whats your "other"?

     

  • BVD

    @Mark Dewis Did you even read all the poll options?😆 (top one on the list isn't even middle ages🤣).

    Also given the Death Fields setting is SciFi and has clear theme going, beside being whole other poll topic they would have to make sense in the setting wise.

    For example the Ogres make sense cause they are re-engineered humans and the Dwarfs make sense due to gravity, and both work for death fields cause they are abducted historical warriors.  The elves would have to go the same route and be people recognizable from human history that has been altered for games.

    My top pic for death fields space elves would be late 18th century pirates in space (i.e. the movie trope pirates you see on that Disneyland ride). Particularly given there are something like at least 2 or 3 space pirate elf lists in the game most people buy Death Fields  kits for and space pirates are a common background trope in SF skirmish games. Likewise I would just make the first set all women and see how it does and maybe make the command/support weapon set male, basically for fun but also because you can get away with it for pirates😉.

     

  • Steven StGeorges

    @Brian Van De Walker 

    A mix of post-apo/exodite regarding Scifi and a mix of Mesopotanian/Desert + Nomad/East Asian for Fantasy...

    But Wild Elves in bikini could be fun too 😁

  • MD

    @Brian Van De Walker but Death Fields is set somewhat in the future - Ooh Rah establishes that. Space Elfs can be advanced human colonists plucked from the tech wars of the 30th century or some such. 

  • PM

    Mark is right. Elves could be genetically engineered human/hybrids designed to live in Low-G or Zero-G environments. Thus they could be taller and slimmer than standard humans, with their facial features elongated/refined as a consequence. Everyone calles them Elves because they have become similar to the old mythical appearance of such beings, based on ancient documentary evidence by the well known historian "Peter Jackson".

  • Lord Marcus

    South-east asia is a veritable untouched land for historical plastic kits. I would love to see the Khmer empire. 

    I also think elves in the style of Joeson Korea or khmer would be exceptionally unique and cool.

    McDougall Designs is a proud partner and retailer of Wargames Atlantic Products. Visit us at https://mcdougalldesigns.myshopify.com/

  • William Redford

    I voted south East Asian as well, but Korean elves would be cool too. 

  • GM

    With  the Iternal Elf idea going through the ages it would be really nice to see some modern/Si Fi Elves that have glimpes of the past on some of their clothing remembering their vast heritage.

  • William Ings

    For fantasy I think elfs based of a historical range, with enough heads to upgrade a historical kit or two into elfs would be cool. For example Warring States China, could have a fantasy elf command box that come with like 20 troops but like 100 head options, that you could then upgrade troops and chariots with to make a Historical-Fantasy elf army.

    This idea can easily be applied to and historical range, from Greeks and Roman's to Egyptians and Samurai.

    I'm a big fan of Historical-Fantasy and have been planing a Mythic-Fantasy Multiverse setting in which heros from legends exist in every world under different pantheons. Any kits that help blend History, Myth and Fantasy would be welcome.

  • William Redford

    @William Ings I like that. Warring states Chinese elves would be cool. I had planned on getting a box of each just because, but I would actually make an army if they had elf options

  • VS

    Honestly? I would choose, if I could, at least five different options.

    South east, Far East, Victorian, Ice Elfs, Exodites / Sci-fi,... But two are really up there for me.

    Amerindia Elfs and Steppe nomad Elfs. 

  • VC

    Bronza Age Elves.

    Kings who did battle with kings and emperors of the bronze age.

    Elves adorned in the fashions of Lagash, Umma, Ur, And Uruk knowing a language not spoken by man in thousands of years. Charioteers who have rode and shot from their ornate chariot longer than their foe's language has existed. Oh such a wonderful idea, the age before man and elf warred in the cities of Sumer, and as Sumer died, sumerian ceding to Akkadian, and Akkadian to Areamea, and Areamean to Arabic, the Elves remain the same, their ancient warriors too dangerous to bother, their numbers too few to care about. Empires rise and fall, Bronze gives way to iron, but the ancient elven cities, each no more than a few thousand, remain, the tides of each new invader in the land of sumer wash over the lands, but the elves remain unchanged. 

  • Lord Marcus

    @Viking Cowboy Yea, I can get behind this.

    McDougall Designs is a proud partner and retailer of Wargames Atlantic Products. Visit us at https://mcdougalldesigns.myshopify.com/

  • BVD

    @Mark Dewis @Steven StGeorges @Vitor Soares(sigh😆) The Exodites are kind of copyrighted and the closest to them on this poll would be Wild Elves or Wood elves if extra SciFi bits where added🤔. 

    Plus given the Ooh-Rah look like all the other standard humans, entered the circut only a little over century ago in cannon, and fought for the Americain space empire I doubt Zero-G human bioengineering ever got past the red tape stage back in human space if it even made it to the drawing board stage in the firstplace (genric zero gravity space colonist elves kind of got aborted hard by setting cannon there🤣, It would be more logical to pick a real world historical warrior culture that you can see getting altered by Xenos that would be exodite like but have enough flavor not to lead to GW lawsuits, like IDK, Mesoamercians or East Indians). 

    Also guys this is not a Sci-Fi poll, all the options on the poll are for fantasy (think swords, halberds and bows, maybe matchcord to Victorian era boltaction guns at the most.... 🤣Well unless we are talking the Urban Fantasy option though that might be more for the modern line thing now thinking about it🤔, even if it had bows, spears, swords, ala Budk cataloge😆. Maybe the same deal WW1/2🤔 though honestly I can still see that option with bow and spears for KoW games). 

    Maybe I should make a second poll for the Death Fields section of the forum🤔.

    @Viking Cowboy @Lord Marcus  Well, while I understand the romance of such an idea that does seem like it would be tough on them the moment the men, orcs, lizardmen,etc. show up with iron headed crossbow bolts (or blackpowder anything😆). Though it is a much more intresting concept than the Dark Age style High Elves in chainmail which I felt obligated to add, and it well work for other things besides bronze age and Genric fantasy with the right weapon layout since elves don't generally define a whole setting (unlike humans🙄).

    I voted the Victorian option myself since that would be something new, we already have gun totting lizardmen, might work as proxy Martian Askari and such for 1899,  fits with the elves elitist mentality, would actually work for most of the genric fantasy games out there as long as the weapon options included bows and some sort of halberd or spear option. Plus I have a game where elves dressed like that might be useful (though I suppose WW1 Scottish Elves in kilts with medivial weapons would be closer to what the authores of that ruleset had in mind😆). 

  • MD

    Fair point about the science fiction angle, but you did include VSF/Steampunk. 😉

    Any solidly historical look is frankly just going to be headswaps. So I vote for an upgrade sprue, or a style of Fantasy that is NOT already well covered (Oathmark, Warhammer, Age of Sigmar, LoTR, Kings of War etc). If it's a kit, there has to be a point to the bodies and gear, so maybe prehistoric is the way to go? Not "Cave-elves" as such, but maybe more like Terry Pratchett's version where they use glamour to make scraps of skin and trinkets look like high fashion. Time means nothing to the Fey, so you could mix in anachronistic elements.

    Midsummer Night's Dream.

    Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar.

    The Lady of the Lake.

    Melniboné.

  • BVD

    @William Ings Given how the last fantasy poll on the FB group  had "I use historical scale minis for fantasy gaming" winning out not to mention almost everyone else doing plastic elves already does them in clunky ugly Heroic, hopefully WA will make their elves work great with their history set scale and kitbash wise  (if they do them). 

    Also given we are talking human sized subject I think it would smarter to keep the number of bodies around 30 to 40 for historical scale particularly if the historical scale WA sets I have already are anything to go by they well have plenty of heads anyways (even the rather plain Goth set I have has enough heads to likely decorate another 60 figures easy, same deal with the Afghans).

    I do have something like an alternative to what you’re talking about on the poll: "throwing them in Random History sets when there is sprue space".

    Truth be told I actually proposed doing a historical scale elf head swap sprue in the past a couple of times and had considered adding it to this poll, but I finally realized there were few issues with it.

    The big issue I finally saw with it just being one big sprue of head swaps is that there are too many "head to body" join systems for human sized minis. Even if we are just talking  WA minis, they use 3, and 2 of them are for the sweet, sweet, Historical stuff we would actually want them for.

    The second big issue I found can be worked around which was "which hats/helmets to include" by simply doing fantasy variants of common hats: a clearly fantasy helm for Bronze age to Renaissance, a fantasy feathered cap for 16th-18th,  a fantasy Shako or Kepi for 18th-20th, bare heads, maybe a fantasy steel helmet for WW1 to current era, etc. Point is hats that are fantasy in a way but could actually fit into some centuries of human history while looking nice and of that era (i.e. a costume maker solution to the issue is needed).  However when I came to that solution I realized WA could probably just do all that in a proper elf set or as a sprue it would do better after they made proper elf set.

    A couple of other issues are “would people buy a sprue of just elf heads?” and “would it be sold in a manner where you could actually buy just one pack of them to change a whole WA history set into a fantasy set with the same hats?” but given conclusions drawn from the solution to the second issue they are sort of mute points till an actual set is out.   

  • BVD

    @Mark Dewis That I added because both VSF and Steampunk are very coverable in fantasy. In fact a good chunk of steampunk gaming is just fantasy gaming with more guns (Iron Kingdoms) and I have actually seen way more than a few fantasy settings where everyone is dressed Victorian but they are still using bows, swords, spears, etc. with some body armor for foot troops cause magic (lots of tabletop RPGs have this as cover art and its sort of common in manga and anime actually😉). 

    Also  WA's fantasy line scales/looks better with historical scale figures (you know like the very Victorian and steampunkable Warlord's Zulu war stuff and FPW Prussians, etc. Perry does, not to mention WA's own stuff)  than their SciFi stuff, so there is that too. It’s basically the same deal with the WW1/2 option listed except with Rubicon, Warlord and 3d Print land tanks. 

    Honestly if WA were to do  an elf set them similar to their upcoming Bavarians but with medieval weapon options and a few or all  of them wearing fantasy armored cuirass, I would totally get them to kitbash with the Bavarians for both human and elf armies.😁

    Anyways,  it sounds to me like you should have joined me on the Victorianish fantasy side, voted for one of the "throw it in with" options or just voted Wild Elves. While they may not be Terry Pratchett's elves high fashion stone age,  Wild Elves would be diffrent from whats out there in plastic anyways (and I get the feeling that "Wild Elves" is everyones second or third chose really🤔).

  • HM

    I chose East Asian mostly because the modern concept of "the Elf" seems far more Japanese than it does Northern European.

    IE; a long lived race of wise practitioners of arts mundane, martial, and magical, with a goal of striving for total perfect of their chosen craft. Living in settlments both grand and remote, a social structure both familar and alien.

    Modern Elves are Samurai era Japanese (at least as stererotyped by non Japanese), lol.

    My second would be SE Asian Elves - those would be amazing. Filipino sea raiding pirate elves? Amazing.

    My third choice would be the naked/loin clothed forest elves - or something that would help depict something primal, and equally as natural and unnatural as fey beings such as the elves would have been in original mythic concept.

  • ADC

    I voted Pirate Elves for the incredible numerous possibilities of such a kit, after all pirates existed for centuries, so you can mix various ages' minis, the sprue could be a mix of either male & female bodies (no high hells, please!). Another idea could be a near future/cyberpunk elves' sprue, as in the world described in Blight(well, in its future) or Shadowrun, so you can mix fantasy and sci-fi.

  • CP

    So many interesting choices there. It's a pity we could only select one. I do hope that WA look at this to get a few ideas 😋

  • William Ings

    This is in a mobile game I play. It reminded me of this thread. 

  • BVD

    @Chris Pryme Well, that is how the polls on here work, but one can list thier top 3 in the comments.

    That said I think I need to share this poll on the FB group, so far the most boring option (High Elves) is in the lead which just doesn't seem right, but we only have 25 votes thus far.

     

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  • Chris Guy

    Kinda hard to decide as they all seem good. But personally, we don't see many Arabian style or WW2/ 1 styles. So those might make a good change.

  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker From experience, many wargamers on a whole tend to lean towards more conservative ideas in so far as desire for products go. I think there is a certain degree of 'people don't know what they want until you give it to them' mixed with the related concept of having desires shaped by what is already on the market.

    I find that's often the case of high elves in particular - they all ape GW's weird greco-roman interpretation of elves, despite elves not having anything to do with Greeks or Romans, or thier place in world history.

  • William Redford

    @H M yeah. Its pretty telling when the 2 highest results in the poll are "Wood Elves and High Elves". So basically the standard vision for elves is what people want. I mean, that is what would probably have the most cross compatibility... but man some SE asian or Korean inspired elves would have been great.

     

  • JU

    Ok. Hear me out here. Three musketers style elves. Rapiers, epees and matchlocks.

  • William Redford

    @Jonathan Udbye you are speaking my language... you had me at rapiers

  • MD

    Oddly, those pike and shot era miniature games and RPGs that include fantasy elements tend not to include Tolkienesque elves as much. Typically they're horror style supernatural like Silver Bayonet or All for One: Régime Diabolique. I'd include the somewhat obscure but excellent Lace and Steel RPG in that list too - while it has fantasy races, they're basically drawn from the classical tradition (centaurs, satyrs, harpies etc. No Dwarves, Halflings or Elves).

    Flintloque has Elves as French, but that's Napoleonic, not Musketeer era. (Edit: oops, so is Silver Bayonet!)

    (I'd be happy to be enlightened as to the existence of a game where Musketeer Elves exist, though). 

  • M

    was about to mention Flintloque

    https://www.alternative-armies.com/collections/elves-of-armorica

    https://www.alternative-armies.com/collections/dark-elves-of-catalucia

     

    personall i like the idea of desert elves or 'tribal' elves. especially the latter, as you could draw on a lot of elements from north an south american native cultures, as well as african and polynesian cultural stuff to create a fairly unique feel.

    that said, i think desert elves (with an arabic, persian, and/or other middle eastern cultural inspirations) would fit into a wider range of fantasy rulesets and settings.

  • MD

    Most of these (i.e. Flintloque) are really just head swaps, though. The closer the setting steers to the historical look, the more this will be the case.

    Unless the elves are significantly shorter or taller than humans, which may be the case.

  • BVD

    @H M @William Redford

    Actually😒, from my personal experience on the WGF forum, when it comes elves at least people usually assume everyone else has the same “awesome” idea of what High Elves should look like (SPOILER: no else has that same idea ever!😆),  so of course they would vote for it when in actuality they would be better served picking something more specific culture wise or even voting “other” since no one else in the room thinks that way about High Elves, or elves in general (same deal with wood elves).

    This is because standard is not actually a thing with fantasy races like “High Elves” or “Wood Elves”,etc. in books and media (unless you count middle ages Bavaria as being the standard default  fantasy setting and culture cause Grimm brothers and Disney😆).  

    For example, back on the old WGF forum, Joseon Koreans where actually more less the culture picked/hashed out for a theoretical elf set by majority vote, that majority being basically me and 2 to 3 other guys that thought it was good idea for elves. Everyone else had their own unique ideas of what “High Elves”, “wood Elves”, “dark Elves”, etc. looked like once you read their comments and they where not even always cohrant or normal ideas (Someone wanted "standard/genric" elves without robes, cloaks or hoods even though the closest to standard examples of clothing elves wear is guess what?: robes, cloaks and hoods😆).

      It was not a polled idea like this and use of those generic descriptions made it apparent that they promise everything and nothing at the same time.  I mean several people in this thread kept thinking wood elves are “primal” when most manufactures sell them as robinhood style rangers which frankly is pretty far away from primal and very likely to be what gets made with that option.😉

    So at best "High Elves" are kind of vote for having yet another poll which would vary from “so should HighElves look like Normans, Saxons,  Vikings, pre ottoman Turks, etc.?” to this poll again minus the "high, wood, frost,wild,etc." options, at worst it means its what the box title is going be.

    Also after looking at armor photos for awhile, I am pretty sure GW’s High Elves (and while we are at Ral Parthas, Oathmark, etc.) are dressed in various styles of unrealistically standardized Turkish armor typically with  blue  paint schemes on the box art that gives for some reason gives them  the illusion of a Greek feel without actually really being Greek (the mantic elves are more Greco-roman than the GW’s, and probably the only ones out on the market that are not out an out wearing Turkish armor)

    I mean look at the  High Elves, ignore the colors:

     

    Now look at this Turkish armored Warriors, imagine them with the blue and whi:

     

     

    Pretty much the same styles of armor, undercoat, even the helmets are similar.

    The only Greco-roman thing about the GW Elves is some of the scrub brush plumes helmets you see on rare occasions (the more common winged feather helms are also likely Turkish with some Chinese influnces) and maybe the heavy use of large shields with spears and that last bit could just as easily be a Norman or Turkish thing.

    So given that every war game high elf ever seems wear some variant style of  Turkish armor except Mantic’s offerings, personally I am just going to count “High Elves” votes as votes for “Turkish elves” at this point, making that 19% vote thus far for Turkish Elves😆.   

  • BVD

    @Mithril2098 @Mark Dewis I did add a "Napoleonic elves" option due to Flintloque and Silver Bayonet (though you can use whatever you want for Silver Bayonet practically😆).

    Edit: The only big problem I see with musketeer elves is would elves even use matchlocks over bows?  after all we are talking about warriors that have lived hundereds years and trained all that time (why wouldn't they be master archers),  meanwhile matchlocks (along with crossbows) are kind of that long loading time range weapon you arm your peasents with so they are somewhat battle ready in 6 months.

    Guns in general didn't really have a big tactical advantage over bows other than it being easier train newbie troops with  and scaring horses till maybe the flintlock period in the 1700’s,  though honestly the breechloading guns of the 19th century are probably what finally made firearms all around  better than bows🤔.

  • MD

    @Brian Van De Walker what may matter at an individual shooter level may not carry over to a unit one. The historical facts are that matchlock muskets displaced crossbows (which are MORE easy to learn to shoot than either muskets or bows) and bows starting in the late 1500s and were the norm in Europe within decades. 

    There is also the matter of ammunition - arrows and bolts require skiled labour to produce in several steps, and compared to powder and shot are much bulkier and heavier per shot. In addition, by this time cannon are critical, and the supply train is much simplified if the missile weapons carried by the soldiers are gunpowder ones. But those are mostly strategic or operational considerations. 

    However, your point about elves is pretty valid, and they are not historical. You even see some of that archer snob attitude in Japan, while muskets were displacing bows there (although there are also plenty of examples of Samurai taking to guns with great enthusiasm).  

    I would, however, expect "musketeer" Elves to use impeccably crafted wheel-lock weapons - the mark of wealth and nobility for this era. They might even be rifled - the technique was known by 1520 but difficult to manufacture.

    But maybe not to Elven (or Dwarven) gunsmiths.

  • HM

    @Brian Van De Walker It's worth pointing out that most of the design paradigm for High Elves came long before modern scolarship and Osprey books would begin to make knowledge of what Turkic warriors looked like common knowledge.

    I think the High elf look comes from the very greek styles of helms used by GW elves, and a general sense that they were looking to reverse engineer Elric of Melnibone cover art as the end point of 'Dark Elf' design themes.

  • MD

    IMHO the GW High Elf look is fine. If you're a Tolkien purist, they'd all be wearing mail anyway. But you can't blame a miniature company from wanting to distinguish between armies. And scale is a solid look.

    GW pretty much drew their look from 1970's fantasy art, but the HE armour at least LOOKS like practical gear and makes sense. Eastern Roman Empire armours may well have informed them.

    As far as "modern scholarship" and "turkic warriors" goes, Osprey published their first Men at Arms book in 1971. I can assure you that those were available throughout the period when GW were doing anything, and were every modeller's go-to resource before the internet.  (Edit: did a quick check and MAA 89 Byzantine Armies 886-1118 was published in 1979, and MAA 140 Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774 was published 1983, the same year as the original Warhammer rules were.)

    One VERY important influence were the official Tolkien calendars:

    https://tolkienlibrary.com/miscellanea/calendars/description.htm

    The Hildebrandt brothers had a disproportionate influence on the accepted look of LOTR and Tolkienesque fantasy in general, although as there are no actual battle scenes in LoTR involving fully armoured Elves, I'm not sure they tackled that particular issue. What we think the Fellowship looks like was pretty much set by them, though.

    There's also the old Airfix 1/72 Romans. Note the look of the Sagittarii

  • HM

    Fair enough! I didnt think they were that old!

  • BVD

    @Mark Dewis @H M

    Actually I think you both need a brief art history lesson🤣. 

    The grandfather of US modern ballistic armor, Bashford Dean was the founding Curator of the Department of Arms and Armor at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and an advancer armor studies. During WW1 he complied a book of copious research on armor and helmets modern and medieval from around the world still used as a reference to this day well before Tolkien even got his tenure and cofounded his writing club, and I doubt Bashford was the sole or even the first English speaker to do so given he gave referances.

    Meaning we have had "modern level scholarship" resources on the rest of the world's armor in the Anglo sphere likely since the late 1800’s at least complete with museum exhibits, art work,photos, books, etc. well before the concept of High elves or Osprey Men At Arms was even a thing. And yes Turkish, Japanese, Chinese, etc.  armor was in full display across all of those resources at that time, Osprey Men At Arms is not the beginning and the end of exotic armored warrior research.

    I would actually say Osprey and the modern colorplate books were more than a little late to game given people like Gary Gygax where already making books with accurate depictions of Islamic warriors, etc. on the cover for things like chainmail in the early 1970’s:  

    Likewise given orientalism in  19th century  you would likely have seen  more than a few complete suits and painted depictions of Turkish and Islamic armor in museums on both sides of the Atlantic before the guys who designed the “paradigm for High Elves” as you call it where mere twinkles in their respective fathers’ eyes (who ever they where🤣) and the fellows at GW certainly would have known about them back when they were carving lead and greenstuff into minis in a garage, After all they knew about later Russian and Polish armor which was greatly inspired by Turkish design and would have been at least just as exotic and hard to find examples of if not more so at the time.

    So anyways what this means is yes its more than possible GW used non-European influances on their elves, and to me the Turks and the Islamic empires seem likely as the main influance for the High elves, and I would like to point out the Dark Elves GW put out have had Chinese repeating crossbows and crazy Thai style shoulder armor for decades😆.

    As to the Sagittarii and helmets, etc. nah, the GW elves still don’t look like them really to me, again the only Hellenist influence I really see are the occasional hoplite helmet brushes.

    I mean lets look at them again.  These the typical High elves GW made without any weird feather decorations on their basic helmet:

     

    The closest helmet and setup the Romans had to that was this:

     

    Which was by the way all over Asia, the middle east and North Africa and was clearly adopted by the late romans from the middles East likely after the Huns (i.e. it’s not really Roman and  armor setup the elves have with it isn’t Roman or even this rendition of Roman either):

    Islamic Persia and Turkey on the other hand both have the dang pointy helmets that look a lot like the GW elves, complete with decorations:

    And the Turks have armor styles and setups that are near identical to the WFB High Elves:

     

     

     

    Likewise as bow and spearmen, Turks match up more warrior wise with the High elves than Romans and Greeks who frankly are not real famous for their archery  (like people think the Greeks viewed archers as cowards😬 and while Romans  had them they were still not as well noted🤔). While I can see based on some images why  one might think of Romans, they don’t match up as closely as the Turks and Ming Chinese.

     

  • JP

    Dark Elves, but no bat motifs. That will make them look like vampires.

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  • Blutze

    I have no idea what you think you are seeing.

    Helmets all over the globe and across millenia have been pointy, simply to deflect blows. GW's elven helmets do more than that though, they are excessively tall (without the typical islamic transition from dome to spike) to accentuate the elven head shape. There are a number of panels in the Darkblade comics for instance with a 5:1 ratio of height to width on the face.

    High elf torso protection is usually either multiple layers of textile with scale or lamellar edges, or singlepiece breastplates. Meanwhile the iconic near eastern setup is smaller plates integrated into a mail surface, or a large circular plate worn over mail.

    Arm protection for GW's high elves, if they have anything, tends to be wide and short scale sleeves closed into a full tube. What you have shown is either sleeves built into the mail torso, or skirtey scale/lamellar pauldrons.

    Shield shape and sword styles don't match either. The elves have tall kite shields (once again to highlight their verticality) and fantasy kopesh misunderstandings for the druchii or fantasy arming sword sized xiphoi for both, not the round shields and forced draw cuts or shortish parallel edges you'd expect from turkish, arab, persian, mongol, or eastern european warriors.

  • MD

    @Brian Van De Walker I was specifically adressing H M's odd statement about Osprey. I'm fully aware that Turkish, Byzantine and classical armour scholarship goes back way. The Victorians were nuts about such stuff.

    Speaking of the MMoA, this 15th century barbute they have would be my own pick for the inspiration of fantasy Elven helmets:

    There's classical revival inspiration there, for sure. 

    And I'll stick with my previous opinion that the HE look is more Roman Auxiliaries from Syria than Turkic, with their conical helmets, scale armour and long skirts. Straight off Trajan's Column.

    The Human Figure Types | Trajan's Column

    And I can't speak for anyone outside the UK and Australia on this point, but I will restate the point that the Arfix 1/72 Romans were a VERY popular thing with boys in the 70's. The archer figure was very much in use in wargaming for proxy elves.

    http://plasticsoldierreview.com/review.aspx?id=610

     

  • BVD

    @Mark Dewis HM clearly wasn't aware, you may stick to that if you want, we don't need to agree😉.

    Regardless of the UK popular Airfix Romans and Trajan wall scale mail with skirts though, I will stick to my opinion  on the GW HE being Turkish cause they are wearing armored skirts which the Romans never had and the elves look nothing like either of those examples to me personaly or really anything else from the later/earler Hellenist cultures. Turks and the Chinese (among other Asiatic and Islamic groups) did wear armored skirts though and look more on point to me:

    And I am pretty sure the guys at GW  knew about both culture's armor back when they where sculpting the elves, particularly considering these ex-citadel wizards.

    Frankly  though I think the idea of GW High Elves being a composite of say Norman armor with 15th century cuirrass on top and some sort of egg/flower shaped hat stolen from some picture book about fairies would be a more likely outcome than Airfix Romans but that really is me😆.

    Certainly one could make a very strong argument for Norman armor inspiration with Oathmarks elves though😉.

     

  • HM

    I see your comparisons, but I'm just not seeing the relationship that you do. That high elf is pretty clear based off a mix of European Armor designs, from a Norman cone atop a Corinthian helmet, a plate armor chest over a fish-scale armor skirt. Sure, the Greeks and Romns didnt expressly use those, but the idea of loose hanging armor going down the ankles would have one familiar from military art from pretty much anywhere in the old world - it's neither unique to East Asia, or a particual sigh of provenance from the area, depending on the time periods involved.

    But hey - if you're saying that you'd like more loosely Greco-Roman elves because they are an uncovered aesthetic, I guess more power to you - though I'd rather see elves with a more expressly east asian design, or a design that hews much more closely to thier cultural origins.

  • CP

    I'd opt for any of the Asiatic/Turkic themed elves, or maybe Bronze Age. But lamellar or other 'exotic' asiatic style armours would lok rather good.

  • MD

    Hittite (c.2000 BCE):

    Hittite Chariot Warrior | Johnny Shumate

     

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  • MD

    bitZMarket - Offers for Plastic High Elf Archer and Spearman Sprue

     

    If you're not seeing the matchup between your own picture of a Roman archer and the original monopose plastic high elf archer, I cannot help you. 

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  • BVD

    I get the feeling your both stuck in some “it’s all Greco Roman” world view when it comes to fantasy armor that clearly isn't northern European.🤨🙄

    @H M

    I will show you as best I can why I think/thought they are Turks in reverse order of how I came to that conclusion because it will hopeful make more sense to you that way. Basically I looked at these examples of Turkish armor awhile back:

     

    Because the Numorians you showed in an earler thread looked nothing like any Greco Roman warriors I have ever seen (musems, books, vases, Western Civ class, etc.)  and it became an obsession.

    And they both reminded me way too much of GW High Elves:

    So in conclusion that’s why I think GW High Elves are more likely to be based off of Turks. The Turks also seemed to have on and off adopted earler Greek elements along with other European influnces every so often  and I have seen a Chinese example of the "Corinithian helm" complete with hellinist flare part, so it seems smarter to me to assume the elves are just wholesale based off of Turks, at least for the earler kits.

    (^yeah thats the Chinese Corinthian helmet^)

    Turkish Janissary soldiers even had funny hats which together with their uniforms shape wise look closer to the elves then anything Greco Roman, just need to paint it the blue, white and silver:

    And Lore wise it fits with the GW elves back story better, being a created slave/servant warrior race for the lizard men and all.

    @Mark Dewis I used that photo because it was the closest to the elves to demonstrated beyond a shadow doubt that the GW ELVES ARE NOT LIKE THE ROMAN ARCHERS AT ALL.  Take a closer look your comparson post there isn't that much similarity beyond the  pose maybe.  The Elf’s bow hold, armor, quiver design, undershirt, helmet, even skirt  look nothing like any of the Roman archer or their “uniforms” (they don’t really look Greek either) I mean look again with context images:

     

    Its just the pose. To be honest the Huns are closer to the Elf Helmet than the romans and they also wore skirts and scale (in fact its likely where the romans got it):

     

    I agree the Hittite does look pretty close but Hittites are NOT GERCO ROMANS, they are middle eastern/Asiatic like the Turks! Likewise once we ditch the goofball helms suddenly they could be anyone from Risk Map Asia clothing wise:

     

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  • BVD

    Also, no I am not arguing in favor of Greco roman elves, I was merely argueing that typical High Elves are not Greco Roman*. (I have seen proper Gerco Roman Elves in a manga once, GW is really not making them and mantic is only halfway right on the helms 🤣)

     Likewise I am actually kinda of opposed the idea of Gerco Roman themes in general  for most common wargame races (too iconic).   In fact the only fantasy races I think might be fun to see as gerco romans would be something like gnomes or maybe organized orcs or actual races from Greco Roman myth, it’s kind of boring for humans and therefore elves even compared to the default “knock off medieval blackforest Bavaria” fantasy architypes🤣. (besides the Halflings and skellies already fill in for Greeks and Romans😉).

    Anyway, what I would really like to see for elves would be the sort of elves you would expect to see in the Franco Prussian war (if magic and the like was in play), sort of like this:

     

    But maybe more colorful and more heavy on the fantasy weapons like bows, spears, etc. (though sabers/cutlesses instead of double edged swords would be cool).

     

    *( I even wrote High elves= dark age elves😆, Greco roman armor culture while arguably an influence on the time was pretty much good and dead in the dark ages even if you count the Byzantines. Gerco Roman elves would be Bronze Age Elves with lots of back and forth arguements in the forum  vs. what the Sea people,Hittite,Egyptian, etc. lovers want)   

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