Discuss this listing from Vox Populi: https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/vox-populi/products/germanic-warrior-army-builder-1-vote
Dark Age/Germanic Warrior Army Builder
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Hudson Adams Moderator
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I can't stress enough the value a set like this could have. For me, as an historical player and a kitbasher, it would probably be one of the most bought sets.
A set that could build a great barbarian army, or soak up all the quality bits left from the Goths and Late Romn sets? Priceless.
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The body looks suitably generic that it could even accomodate sci-fi kitbashing!
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To confirm, is it Bodies and heads only? Or will there be parts for entire figures, just with limited options?
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@Miyuso I would be okay with just bodies personally.😉
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@Hudson Adams Looking good so far, I'm a fan of the included moustache heads there - if the set is to be a truly generic 'Dark Age Warrior' set then moustache heads are a must for making the 'run-of-the-mill' troops from non-Germanic cultures like Romano-British/Welsh.
I presume then that there won't be any extra weapons at all in this set, for which the player must rely upon the spare ones from the Goths box?
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@Caratacus or when they are out the Franks box.
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@Brian Van De Walker I assume many would, but it would also cut down on people who aren't at a point yet of getting multiple boxes/don't have a bits box/are new and discouraged by not having everything in the one box
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@Miyuso maybe, but think of it as a 2 box starter army setup or the second kit you get. You buy this along with the Goth or Franks set and then just use the extra arms from Goth or Franks set (I know the goth set would likely have more than enough arm bits leftover to equip another whole box of 60 figures).
This isn't unreasonable or that dishearting even for newbies as long as its stated on the box with a big warning label that it isn't a complet model kit but an extension kit (it works for model kit companies, it should work in this case). Most folks will buy this after trying out the first set to see if they like it.
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@Brian Van De Walker as long as it's got that label, I'm good with it. Plus would make for an interesting mix with some Death Fields bits ;)
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@Brian Van De Walker as long as it's got that label, I'm good with it. Plus would make for an interesting mix with some Death Fields bits ;)
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Warlord games has a new hail Ceaser book coming out soon called "Ceaser's Gallic Wars". These will be great for that.
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Hudson Adams Moderator
Of course they'd have arms and shields! LOL.
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@Andrew Fernandez For Gauls or Germans you'll want either Warlord or Victrix's Celts or Ancient Germans respectively - these warriors are, by contrast, for Dark Ages warfare, from about 500 to 1000 years later.
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I'm so glad that this set is doing well in vox populi voting. It seems like fans of the decline and fall range haven't had much to cheer about for a minute (except that we can make a full sassanid army now) I have so many projects that will include these boys
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@Big Boi Would be good for WA to produce this set since the D&F range has had zero for 18 months or so since the Goth set came out. To be honest, though, I'm wondering how this set would compare with Victrix's new Unarmoured Early Saxons to be followed by Armoured Early Saxons in a few weeks. Add to that their 7 (!) Late Roman sets, and they now have 9 sets available. All released in 18 months or so. Be good to see more pictures of the WA competitor.
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I think that a box, with a set of heads and arms to to basic weapon/pose assortments (like the Napoleonic Prussian army builder) but then could be enhanced by options from the Goth box, would be perfect. I'm really excited by the prospect of this box, I have several different army/uses in mind for a couple of boxes of these.
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This discussion started a year ago, and in a hobby company time, that is almost nothing.
I have written this many times on your group and on the legion group, your work and community engagement is commendable.
That being said, the more bodies per frame, the better, in my opinion. The bodies on the Goth frame are already really good. Spears and shields, of course.
I have already ordered some boxes, keep up the good work.
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@Vitor Soares As someone who bought the Goth set, I still think it should have no weapons, just be torsos with about half to 75% of them having left arms for sheilds already attached. I say this because if you buy the standard Goth kit you well already have quite a few weapons, frankly there is probably enough to equip 60 addtional guys in just one box.
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Hudson Adams Moderator
@Brian Van De Walker that would be a pretty awful product. Sorry.
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I think some STL files to go along with this box are necessary. Files like teardrop and concave shields so that these can include people in the 800s-1000s. My desire to do the Holy Roman Empire justice is strong and I am glad to have a start for a good army to recreate the battle of the Lechfeld with
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@Hudson Adams If 60 torso set seems bad, than maybe make it an 80 so they have to buy a second Goth kit😆.
From what I can tell given your other AB, your planning on doing a 60 near soild pose figure AB for a subject that currently has several 40-60 multipart figure boxes out on the market at roughly the same price as your current sets, thats seems more like an awful product idea to me than just torsos and maybe heads, particularly given the fact that most of the people exicted for this seemed to be thinking about kitbashing with it given the FB group but hey its your call.
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@Brian Van De Walker @Hudson Adams on this, I think you are both right, up to a point.
I already have the goth and the late roman boxes and I bought the AB to soak up bits and for kitbashing. So for me, less and and more bodies would be ideal. About 60 would be great, just spears for weapons and no shields.
However, from a business point of view, I completely understand that you have to cast as wide a net as possible with your product. I just think that an AB box with 40 bodies seems light, but I will buy (have bought it) anyway.
Again, congratulations for community engagement \ putting up with us.
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Hudson Adams Moderator
This box will be 48 figures. And again, we don't really care what other companies are making. Our focus is always on expanding the breadth and depth of our own catalog.
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@Hudson Adams Personally and I could be wrong on this but I just don't really see a 48 figure set of identically dressed genric European guys as being much of an AB to add to that 30 figure Goth set or the whole range so much as competition to it and any other Northern European subjects you plan on doing for the "Fall of Rome to Norman Conquest" era unless the weapon parts are really diffrent (Which seems unlikely to me given the Europeans from that timeframe seemed pretty static IRL appearance and weapon wise if we are just talking grey plastic). Honestly based on your other posts it sounds more like what most people would have started with for the Goths and then moving on to doing archers with command.
As to adding depth, after this you could focus on the Palmyrene Empire and Huns or the Dark Age Africian and Muslim states since those would actually add depth to those two lines (not Vikings since all you need to cover those old slavers is nasel guard helmets in the ABs, same deal with Saxons really), your essenatly done with the genric looking unarmored Dark Age Europeans on foot thanks to the Goth set and this unless you really want to do the Franks of charlemagne's era.
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Must admit I'm a bit confused what the Dark Age Army Builder really offers that is new over the Goth set. The Goth set is just a single sprue replicated 6x to give you 30 figures. It's offers no command frame with different armoured body types, special standards, command heads etc. So the AB just seems now to be a 48 figure version of that set (perhaps 8 sprues of 6 figures), with extra heads replacing the bows/quivers.
It's main angle is that it offers better value at £25 (since the Goth set is £25 for just 30 figs). That is clearly a potential winner. I would like to actually see a sprue mockup before considering ordering.
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@graham Well there is a command "banner" and musician arm in th Goth set, yeah there are no armored bodies for them but you could use the Romans for that (fact is outside of missing axes, the late Romans could cover for a lot of the armored European options of the time with just headswap).
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WGA I just have one request (I understand the irony of that statement since I've made mltiple requests connected to this set here and on FB)
Can we please get a variety of weapons, especially javelins. Javelins are so universal but are never put in sets that arent explicitly skirmishers.
Thank you
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@Big Boi I don't think thats a good idea, honestly the more weapons and heads on this as opposed to bodies, the less its an AB and the more its just another general purpose dark age warrior set thats not really adding anything new. Besides its not supposed to be used by itself but in conjunction with other sets.
Frankly I think realistically the most they should have is spears and sheilds* or if erroring on the "rule of cool side" one to two of each melee type of weapon on the sprue, maybe with two sets of heads at most** if we are not going with it being a dolly torso set for using up the parts from more themed sets which I still think would be a smarter way to go personally.
Not really sure how many groups besides the Romans actually used slings in the Fall of Rome to Norman Conquest period though they seem less common in researched novels than Gripping Beast makes them out to be in thier kits and game, on the other hand throwing spears would be realistic given how simple the concept is however it would also be simple to make them if you have over hand long spear holds (with slings it could be one again half a dozen of the other and honestly neither play a real noted role in fantasy wargaming which is the big secondary market for this kit).
*(I do know swords were more costly and not as effective spears, so it would be senseable not to have that many of them. )
**(though simply not having uniform headswaps, which is the most realistic for that era by the way, at one to a body ratio would work fine and probably be the smart way to do it if you got to give them heads)
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@Brian Van De Walker
I was going to reply with something like "they seem dead set on 48 and it's because that matches up with the dark age shield sprues that they'll just throw into the box" but then I decided to actually count how many shields are on each sprue to ensure I don't look like an idiot.
It's 7 rows of 3 shields on each sprue, 21 shields per sprue. So that means if WGA is trying to stick to the shields being the limiting factor then 48 makes no sense, it should be 42 or 63. So now I'm just even more confused. Why is the company dead set on 48 for an AB set when the other one they have has 60 boys? I'm sure when we finally see the layout for the sprue we'll see that they made some other choice that probably makes a lot of sense but untill then I'm just scratching my head at the insistence on 48
Also slings are cool dammit. They show up as factor as late as in the battle of Marchfeld in the late 13th century and they're a very simple technology so I imagine they were probably often used even if there isn't extensive scholarship on their use from the 5th - 10th centuries. We know for certain that throwing spears were used in that period but so few sets seem to include them
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Hudson Adams Moderator
LOL you'll just get extra shields! We're not GW or other corporate game companies that require everything to be sliced and diced and commoditized until there is no joy left!
48 ibecause there will be 8 unique bodies on the frame and the box won't need to be ridiculously large to fit them.
Weapon choices will be spear and sword. If you want javelins cut off the ends of the spears and Bob's your uncle.
The Prussians are six men on a tiny frame that we put 10 of in a box. It worked out to 60. 60 is not a # that is assigned to any Army Builder set. (see point one about corporate game companies). AB sets may vary by all kinds of #s. It's more about providing easier to build army builders for creating big units.
The product is not a be-all, end-all. It's a way to cheaply get a bunch of miniatures on the table. That said the inclusions we will have are - I believe - quite clever. So hopefully people will like it!
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Hudson Adams Moderator
That all said - we will be including (if they all fit) 5-6 options of 8 heads each (40-48 heads) on the frame. This will allow you to build these as a variety of tribes and nations for the Migration Period through to the Viking Age. Let us know what you'd love to see!
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@Hudson Adams
Good to hear. Carolingians and Ottonians is my big vote. I want these boys following Otto I to the Lechfeld, and then his son to his disaster at the battle of Stilo
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@Hudson Adams
Also by your first point, what makes an army builder isn't necessarily massive numbers of models, it's more that very simple models which may only have 2 or 3 parts are inside rather than the goths for example where both arms and heads and shields are supposed to be glued on
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Alright, might be a bit long-winded.
Bear with me, there is method to my madness, and a point to my ramblings.
First of all, the blurb on the pre-production page says "at least 48 bodies".
I know we tend to die on the hill of words, but WGA has already shown us they'll probably fix and change things once in production.
They splintered the original Mounted Conquistadors kit into two different boxes.
Maybe they'll do the same with Goth Army Builder.
I would not fixate on the box being "Goth" or generic dark age, or specific tribes through new heads.
It would be great if they added as many bodies as possible.
I would happily buy a body-only kit.
They could split it into a complete starter box, with arms, shields and heads, and a body-only box with just sprues of bodies.
Would it be a terrible kit? Not necessarily, just a different kit, just like DF Upgrades was not meant to be a standalone box, but an upgrade sprue.
On facebook I ran some numbers on existing sprue, and I'll attach a few images in the following posts, to share with you.
^_^
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01 - Goth Warriors Sprue
When assembling Goth Warriors, one sprue yields 5 complete models.We have about 30 leftover bits - depending how many extra bits put on those bodies, like plumes, shields, scabbards, and so on.That's enough to arm 5-6 more models, between heads, arm pairs, and assorted gear.Basically, we could use at least 30 Army Builder bitless bodies per regular Goth kit, to soak up leftover bits.
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02 - Late Romans in Lorica Hamata
WGA suggest to mix Goths and Late Romans to get armored Dark Age Warriors.
Let's compare Late Romans with Goths.
At 4 models per sprue, 24 per kit, Lorica Hamata is a lower model, higher yield kit.
Basically fewer leftover bits per body.You have enough options to equip them all of them with spears, swords or plumbata and shield.Plus, you have a selection of three different sets of heads plus spares.In a sense, Lorica Hamata is a "tighter" kit than Goth Warriors: fewer leftover bits, all matched in groups, fewer duplicates.If you sourced bodies from another sprue/kit, you could build 4 more full models, but you would need more left arms to match the right handed weapon, anyway.So, a vote for integral left arm bodies in chainmail; 24 to soak up all the chainmail arms.
Very specific, not the best candidate for this Army Builder box; maybe in the future.
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03 - Dark Age Irish
Probably my favorite soak up kit from WGA, DA Irish has 6 human bodies plus 2 dogs per sprue.Those bodies come with integral left arms, and have fewer right hand options.Not only you don't need a matching left arm, the kit also comes with 12 ADDITIONAL shields of different sizes.Which makes it a suitable soak up partner for both Goths and Romans: you can use the leftover hands from Goth and splice then on Irish arms for extra axes or slings.And you can give both Goths and Romans the much needed leftover Irish shields.It's the perfect barbaric match.DA Irish also leaves us with 4 extra heads and 8 unmatched right arms, per sprue.A body-only kit with 20 integral left arm bodies would be nice to soak THOSE bits up.
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04 - Persians
Now, with WGA Persians we're pushing into fringe armies, alt history and outright fantasy.
But they are an integral arm kit, and worth mentioning too.
The box contains 40 models, 5 bodies per sprue.
Two models with integral left arms.Could be suitable for lighter armed/armored folks, especially archers.Lots of leftovers here, about 30 bits, mostly heads.
Shield also, if you are not going to give your guys eastern style shields.I'd probably use the hair heads for my western guys too.
One body with what looks like lorica squamata.Two bodies with quilted armor - maybe usable as eastern aketons for later eras.Could be mixed with Goth/Irish.Some shields could be used as barricades.
Armies were seldom as clear cut as history books and miniature kits might indicate.
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So, what's my point?
I am ok with 48 bodies.
I would actually hope for more: 30 bodies in tunics to soak up Goths, and 20 with integral left arms to soak up Irish.
If we're working with a figure of 6 bodies per sprue, that could mean 3 tunic bodies, 2 integral arm bodies and maybe 1 body with some kind of armor - maybe hamata or squamata? - per sprue.
Those add up to 24 tunic bodies, 16 integral arm bodies and 8 armored bodies - over 8 sprues.
If they split the Army Builder into two different boxes, they could add head/arm/shield sprues to the started box.
And more body-only sprues to the "soak up" box - 8 body-only sprues for a total of 64 bodies.
. . .
Whatever the outcome, it's not a huge investment for me, as a customer: about 64€ for a couple of boxes in pre-production.
I'm just mentioning the option, since they've already produced body-only sprues - Cannon Fodder - and they already split a project into two boxes - Mounted Conquistadors.
^_^
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@Brian Van De Walker . There are parts of a command set on the Goth (and late Roman set) in the sense of a standard, horn etc. There are no specific officer type bodies with better or more ornate armour. Same can be said about the heads which are very generic. The current Goth and Late Roman boxes, as far as I'm concerned, are already for the rank and file, not the command. Hence why I see the AB box as a duplication.
I'd probably prefer a box of torsos like you recommend. I have vast numbers of shields, heads, arms etc from other plastic sets. The shortage is torsos. For example, I bought 3 boxes of Victrix Late Roman unarmoured infantry and 3 boxes of armoured infantry. That's 216 torsos but 1470 heads. I will never be short of a Late Roman head ever again!
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@grahamThe Goth's have a fur cape and a sheathed sword with resting hand and pointy hand, in my book that counts as your officer (used that to add a hobgoblin warchief to my grey pile).
That said you have point about the goths and romans being line trooper ready and maybe it might be wiser given the end cost of this to just make a bigger box and put extras of the already done sprues in it. It would do all the same things.
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@Hudson Adams I looked at what you preveiwed. You can sell this with just the helmet headswaps and probably should since it would still represent all the tribes, it will save space and give more reasons to buy the Goths, Franks, Romans, etc. later on. Also identical hats for the saxons?
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Hudson Adams Moderator
If we want it to be forward compatible with the Saxons, Franks, etc. you need enough of the right head types in the box so they can pair with the main box. Ultimately you'll be able to mix and match from dozen(s) of sets and create your own flavor of Dark Age tribe - after all our sources on what they REALLY looked like are dismal.
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@Hudson Adams Thats the thing, the helmets alone make the AB already work out that way since a person collecting a historical army is more than likely going to mix in the unhelmeted heads from the main "command/archer/whatever barbarian they want" flavor set, and someone buying for "Rome" or fantasy is going to just use the helmet heads unless they are planning on making hobgoblins or using the Roman light infantry caps.
Likewise, just from the wiki article it sounds like everyone running from the Huns wore the spangenhelms and seem to have kept on wearing them till the end of the "Dark Ages" at least, meanwhile looting or buying the Roman helmets just makes sense for the earler timeframe. So from a historical veiw, the helmets by themselves cover everything planned and more and you save sprue space better used for more bodies, etc.(cause honestly, if you could wear a helmet to battle, why wouldn't you?)
Less really is more in the case of the headswaps for this type of set, most you should consider for the unhelmeted heads if you absolutely must have them is either combinding the other 3 sets into 1 set of heads (since yes we really don't know how they looked like) or just use the Goth head set if its diffrent from the one in the Goth box since the Goth heads seem like they could cover for everyone in Europe till the 12th century at least.
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I think it depends on what you want to cover during the "Dark Ages". In terms of helms, you'd want Northern Ridge type helms (Late Roman Ridge, Vendel, most Anglo-Saxon) and Spangenhelms. In addition though, if you want it to reflect the later Dark Ages (Norse, Anglo-Dane, Normans) you'd also want single piece Nasal helms. For Lombards or more eastern European forces (Huns, Avars, Byzantines etc), you'd want some lamellar helms in the mix.
I think that's the issue. It's actually very hard to cover such a wide time and geographical period with a single box. I suppose it depends on how accurate WA want to be. This is the company that created an STL of Ardashir I (180–242 AD) on horseback with stirrups! Umm. Or their Late Romans (284-476 AD) that seemed to have a number of helms that might have fitted better in the 2nd/3rd century than 4th/5th. It doesn't really matter. That box was still a boon to those interested in Middle period Imperial Romans.
My take from the updated preview is that I get 48 unarmoured bodies for £25. Sort of 50p a body. The heads/arms etc are probably never going to be used.
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@graham Hmm, from what I have seen in books and elsewhere while nasal helms where indeed the popular helms of the Viking Age (later Dark Ages) I am pretty sure the Spangenhelms as they are can cover that timeframe as well for alot of Europeans (like I have Later Dark Age sets with these and have heard no accuracy complaints about those particular heads so they work at least in a handwave way, though I get the feeling they where used through the Early Crusades in real history). Barring that you can always either swap them out or use a bit of green stuff for the nasal guards, frankly I feel proper nasal guard helms should'be for the "named barbarian tribe that actually had them" sets.
As to lamellar helms, again I think that should be in "named barbarian tribe that actually had them" and/or put in the Roman AB that would be Eastern Rome.
That aside the main focus of WA's plastics for both Blood Oaths and thier Roman line really is more for the late "decline" of Roman to the rise of Charlemagne as opposed to the "High Viking Age to Normans", so they only really need to add helmets for that if they going to do headswaps and weapons.
Likewise, no I would say its actually too easy to cover that whole dangnabbit timeframe and possibly a little earler with one box, at least as far as most unarmored Northern European warriors go since they did not leave a whole lot to go on and the Romans and others who did write at the time kinda of put them into one box themselves😆.
Honestly I have seen folks use Germinic Tribesmen and anceint celts in thier Viking hords with little or no modification with appluse. Plus all of Victrix's dark age warrior offerings which I think were based on heavy research seem to all shop from the same pre Norman Conquest Hot Topic to the point where its kinda of boring and you wonder why Victrix bothered,(With the Victrix sets its like every piece of armor and clothing that random self proclaimed experts claim was unique to the Vikings is in fact just how normal European warriors everywhere dressed and equipped themselves through that timeframe since the fall of Rome🤣). So yeah I am pretty sure a 1 box AB works here.
Also re-look at the cost, for this AB it is $34.99 (roughly $35) at pre-produaction order with a planned finished price of $39.95 (roughly $40). Last I checked (which was as of this post) 25 British Pounds is exactly 32.66 USD, and depending on how things go in the next couple of months the value gap between the pound and dollar could lessen even more
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Can we assume full interchangeability with the Goth, Roman and Irish Warrior boxes? I hope so, because then this means that Gripping Beast bits and bobs can also be used for even more creative endeavors.
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Hudson Adams Moderator
Yep for sure. Rob is just finishing up some things on a Barons' War set for next year and then we'll have him back on this to wrap it up and finalize things.
Brian - the value of the pound to the $ is somewhat irrelevant for us as our pricing in the UK is unique for that market whereas the rest of the world goes off US pricing.
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