@Will Mansell
Thank You. That was informative.
Next for the range?
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@Will Mansell
Yes, Warlord Games makes Landsknechts.
I was in on that campaign with 200 bucks for the plastic set when it was still Pro Gloria on Indiegogo. That campaign alas failed, and they sold all of their metals and the existing concepts to WG who luckily published that a year or three later, adding arquebus and double handers later.
Still...
I am quite unhappy with many of their design decisions. The pikes do not look like those actually used, the heads are only partially usefull (thanks to Steel Fist for their metal versions), the Katzbalger are too large, and some of the armour is simply ahistorical. It is good to have them, but these sets fall far short from what they could have been. Repeated twice.
The fashion of Landsknechts certainly changed a lot over the years. In their first one and ahalf decade, from 1482 to 1493, they would look not far from the "Burgundian war" Swiss, who trained them and formed integral parts of their units (unsurprisingly, as the Swiss was formally part of the Empire). We do have pretty good depictions of Swiss and Landsknechts from around 1499/1500, when they battled it out in the Swabian wars, in addition to other paintings and sketches. A totally different fashion style.
When Landsknechts show up on paintings over Ravenna, Guinegate, or later Fornovo, they are again transformed, and probably in their most famous era. The Swiss would look similar, if in details decididly different, and even the Italian, French and Spaniards tended to look not far off. On the most paintings of Pavia you cannot really differ between Swiss and Landsknechts, unless you look for beards or other details. Looking at the paintings of the invasion of Tunis 1535 we again see many differences, and here Spaniards and Landsknechts look different.There are also fine paintings showing the imperial army on the march towards the defence of Vienna in 1532.
It would be here where the Conquistador sets kick in, and we can probably backtrack them to the late Colunella era. With the right heads and weaponry I would use them for the campaing from Pavia over Rome/Naples to Vienna and Tunis. I will see how good they mix with the WG plastics and metal parts once my preorder comes in.
Later Landsknechts, for the Schmalkaldic war of 47 and their later mercenary usage in the French WOR, would again look different, with Pluderhosen, wedged armour, and the felt hat (taken probably from the Stradiots) showing up - which would be pretty ahistorical for anything before 1540. Around 1570 the Landsknechts - as defined as self-regulating pike units - started to vanish and would only exist in name and memory by 1590.
So, why do I want Landsknechts for the only era where a set already exists? To supplement them. The WG landsknechts look a bit stiff, even when wielding arquebus or swords. Some of their armour (wedged plates) needs work to make it bearable, and many of their heads are useless - I am REALLY looking forward to put WA-heads upon the heap of bodies I do have. More important, there are no Landsknechts save the metals from Foundry or Artizan that can be used to model a push of pike or even a standing pikeblock (ad depicted in many contemporary engravings). I am looking forward to French or Italian style heads - head variety is one of the real great strengths of WA to create these units. My personal focus is on the 1515 to 35 era.
That said, and coming back to the "Malta"-posting - the siege of 1522 of Rhodes was at its time as famous as Malta fourty three years later, and was commanded by a man who was himself soldier by the also famous siege of 1480 forty two years earlier. The besiegers would be the same that conquered Egypt a couple of years earler, that had taken Belgrad the year before, who would crush the Hungarian army four years later and who would fail to take the breech they made into the walls of Vienna in 1529, faced off by Landsknechts and Spaniards.So I am definitely also rooting for Ottoman forces of the 16th century.
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@Axel Schudak
"French or Italian style heads":
What would those look like? What differentiates them?
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My top choices would be Ottomans and the armies of Poland-Lithuania. They have no representation in plastic and it is a fascinating period just waiting to be filled by a manufacturer
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@Erik Pearl
I agree, I think Ottomans are the natural next step considering how dominant and iconic they are for this period.
I’ve been thinking about the best way WGA could cover them in as few boxes as possible (a very big challenge). I think it’s unlikely they would release a box of just janissaries in my opinion (would be nice). I think basing them in the 16th C would cover things such as the Battle of Mohacs and the Siege of Malta whilst also allowing them to represent earlier and later periods with a bit of conversion. It would also align with the Conquistador set (also 16th century).
My immediate thought were that the Afghan Warriors set would already be a great source of parts for conversions and representing the Azabs & Bashi-bazouks (Ottoman irregulars/bandits/cannon fodder) and the Barbary Pirates.
Here's a list of potential heads and bodies you could feasibly include in one set:
Head types:
- Janissary Bork (the famous one with the white tail)
- Sipahi (armoured ‘knights’ helm)
- Turbans of different sizes, quality, feathers (can cover all the way from Pasha generals down to Azab irregulars)
Body/uniform types:
- Pasha/Commander (more decorative button tunics and robes, sashes etc)
- Janissary (more ‘uniform’ button tunic)
- Sipahi (armoured torso, chain mail perhaps)
- Azab (looser generic flowing robes/civilian clothes)
I think between those four head and body types you could cover the majority of the Ottoman infantry for the Renaissance period. And then you'd have to look at the range of weapons, mounted infantry and artillery. Could talk about it for days!
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This illustration shows the range of headwear in the 16th century, from Jannisary bork, turbans and the Sipahi armoured helm.
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And this cover photo from the Warlord set probably show the most iconic 'uniform' of the Janissaries (probably too uniform here)
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@Will Mansell I could not agree more!
And Ottomans might be a good place for some heavy field artillery as well.
.... and big, ornate tents.... ok, I am getting a bit carried away but yeah I would love to see WGA make all kinds of Seige of Malta items.
.... Renedra makes some decent tents in 28mm but nothing like....
https://daily.jstor.org/the-movable-tent-cities-of-the-ottoman-empire/
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Could one Ottoman Infantry kit cover the late 17th and and early 18th century?
That could cover the Siege of Vienna in 1683.
And other stuff in the early 1700s.
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@JTam I think it could. And Polish Winged Hussars are ever so popular!
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@Grumpy Gnome Great point, Ottoman siege artillery was a crucial factor in their dominance so that would be a great addition! I suppose you would also have the same problem of choosing which period of Ottoman artillery to model.
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@JTam
This page is quite interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
It says: "The history of the military of the Ottoman Empire can be divided into five main periods. The foundation era covers the years between 1300 (Byzantine expedition) and 1453 (Fall of Constantinople), the classical period covers the years between 1451 (enthronement of Sultan Mehmed II) and 1606 (Peace of Zsitvatorok), the reformation period covers the years between 1606 and 1826 (Vaka-i Hayriye).."
Janissary uniforms changed very little really from the early 16th to the late 17th centuries which is very useful. In fact Zvezda’s 1/72nd Janissary sets purports to portray them from 1500 to 1700. The main difference was in weaponry, bows went out of use and then there was the transition from match to flintlock. There might be a slight change in accoutrements such as powder horns etc. But this could all be represented by a variety of weapons on sprue.
Perhaps having a standalone janissary set would be a good idea, with a Polish Winged Hussars companion box?
For other units a good reason for sticking to the 16th century is that by the end of it the Yaya (dissolved 1582), Azab and Akinci (dissolved 1595) troop types had disappeared. And in the 17th century new troops such as the Tufekcis were introduced, who were sort of like dedicated musket units and had different uniforms.
But I can’t see a way a box could cover Ottoman infantry from 1453 - 1683. Although I’m certainly no expert so perhaps others can chime in?
The dream Ottoman range (in my opinion) would be:
Janissaries - 1500 - 1700 (includes range of weapons and command figures. Also, if they included some of the characteristic red hats of the Tufekci’s this set could represent them pretty well too!)
Ottoman Infantry c.1500-1600 - Covers light units such as Azabs and heavier Sipahi units. Would still be very useable for earlier or later periods with very minor or no conversion work.
Ottoman Cavalry - Both light and heavy types.
Ottoman artillery - same crew with earlier and later artillery pieces
As always I end my word vomit by saying there aren’t any hard plastic 28mm ottomans on the market so anything in this period would be incredible!
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@Will Mansell
Thank You for the synopsis. It's good to learn something new every day.
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@JTam I might be completely wrong on all fronts, especially before I've had my coffee lol. Been doing more research on 17th C ottomans you expressed interest in to see how different they were - answer seems not much!
Biggest differences were headwear (easy to include multiple different types), weaponry (easy again) and pouches/accoutrements which were probably dependent on the weapon they were holding. Seems like headwear in Janissaries also varied depending on rank. Need to do more research.
Would it be difficult to have pouches and powder horns sculpted and moulded as separate items to glue on depending on age/weapon being used? Could be a good solution to the 'age' problem.
Below's an image from around 1630AD, you can see the Tufekci on the left in their tall red hats and black feathers (sort of reminscent of a fez). Looks to me like they dressed pretty similar to Janissaries of same period (would make sense) just with a different hat. So you could have one 'body' that covers both Janissaries and the later Tufekci troops.
Another Osprey illustration of some Tufekci on left (translates literally to "Rifleman" or "Gunsmith") from 17th C:
Had to research what a 'Peyk' was - turns out the Sultan's bodyguard of Janissaries was divided into two groups, the Peyks and the Solaks. The 'Peyks' were right handed and carried an axe or pike and the Solaks were left handed bow infantry. The hat that the Peyk chap in the middle seems to have been worn by later Janissary troops but didn't replace the classic 'bork' style.
Some more Solaks:
And here you can see the Peyks with their axes and the Solaks with bows:
I'm basically posting my research as I go so apologise if someone more knowledgeable comes along.
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Here are some more cool Janissary illustrations - the decorative motifs like ships and windmilks on their hats would make super cool models I think:
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Oh and don't get me started on animal skins! (Sorry for Janissary spam).
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Really interesting stuff!
The ship hats are........ ..... ....... ..... interesting.
But you're definitely making a statement wearing that.
I know this may be heresy, but looking at that last picture I almost wonder if it would be possible to make a dual purpose Janissary / Polish kit with different heads and a few alternate parts. There is superficially at least, a lot of commonality between their clothing and equipment.
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@JTam Heresy! Admins remove this man!
No I see what you mean, I suppose equally if there was a separate Polish infantry kit you could swap and combine bits between the two for even more variation.
I guess a lot of armies around this period wore similar uniforms so mix and matching would add an extra element of enjoyment (read: WGA announce some more renaissance sets ;) )
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@Will Mansell
The like appearance is more and more superficial the more references I look at. The double duty Polish/Jannisary kit was more of a mental exercise anyway.
It's widely known/accepted the Poles and a lot Eastern Eastern European forces were heavily influenced in weapons, costumes, and tactics of the East. I'm sure some influence worked back the other way.
I wonder if all conflicts given long enough results in opposing forces looking more and more like each other. I suppose successful tactics and weapons will certainly be eventually be adopted by both sides.
I related a little story here:
https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/44387/suggested-new-range-cold-warriors
About how in 1985 an American Soldier looked more like a 1945 German Soldier than a 1945 US GI. Successful elements of camouflage clothing, helmet shape, and weapons types were adopted by the Americans from the Germans.
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In every single poll Wargames Atlantic has ever held, I always submit Rennaisance Polish Winged Hussars, and Rennaisance Polish infantry (with matchlocks and polearms). And I still think there's a market for them.
No one makes plastic hussars, and fielding a large force of metal cavalry models is incredibly expensive. Some good sets of historical Polish heavy and medium cav (winged hussars and pancerni), or better yet, a single set that can do both (lances, pistols, and plate armor with wings; and swords/cavalry hammers with chain armor without wings).
I'd love to see a set of Polish infantry with matchlocks, crossbows, polearms, and swords/axes, wearing zupans or ordinary period-correct clothes (not the cartoony furs like in some other ranges). The Polish infantry that Wargames Foundry makes are excellent, but the range is very limited, and they're in metal and very expensive to create even a single infantry block.
And they could be used for both historical and fantasy wargaming. Easy to insert in Warhammer Fantasy on their own, or as Empire allies. Or for an historical force in lots of pike and shotte rules.
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@Pygmy Hippo
+100
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@Pygmy Hippo Yup Polish Winged Hussars would be fantastic standalone or for kitbashing/fantasy stuff
Plus they're natural opposition for the Ottomans
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@Pygmy Hippo
This man speaks truth.
It's worth noting that the first pics/forces GW teased from Old World Resurrections was Kislevite.
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@Kinjack @JTam Actually it would be smarter do the Polish combined with the Russians, Transylvanians, etc. separate from the Janissaries since they all seemed to use the bardiche axe/glaive heavily (famously to help steady their matchlocks) while I have yet to really see the rank and file the Ottoman empire’s slave soldiers ever use any other poll arm besides the a more typical halberd design let alone steady thier firearms with them. Likewise I am pretty sure it was not too rare for Polish and Russian musketeers at least to sometimes wear armor (chainmail and even plate, it was likely mostly looted armor), and I don’t really see that in most depictions of Janissaries.
@Pygmy Hippo Or just Kingdoms of Man for KoW. I agree they and the Russians are good alternatives to the Western european themed fantasy armies, but we both know they are not going to scale well with whatever GW is doing nor should they since historical scale is king of fantasy gaming armies (plus those GW sculpts are probably going to be some sort of butchered 1/35 scale at this point🤣).
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@JTam
>What would those look like? What differentiates them?
Headgear and beards. French, especially Gascons, are reported with long hair and beards. Italians more clean shaved with short hair. French would use barrets, similar to Landsknechts and Swiss, but without feathers. Italians had helmets, but most are covered by the Perry sets. Spaniards would bear trained and groomed beards in several styles with generally short hair. Overall we speak of 50 years of changing fashion and military necessities with dozens of cultural differences, though, and apart from Swiss and Landsknechts most are not really well covered in contemporary depictions of the common soldier.
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@Axel Schudak
Thank You. Interesting.
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Created an account to vote for 16th century Ottomans. I'd order an army's worth in a heartbeat.
I think the Conquistadors are already a decent approximation for Knights of Malta or other Mediterranean European forces (not that I wouldn't love to see those made, though!) But I'd rather see some Balkan and Eastern European forces from the era get made into plastic.
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I'd really like to see whoever sculpted the amazing Conquistadors do some Border Reivers. A box of foot troops and a box of cavalry done in the style of the Conquistadors would pretty much cover everything you needed.
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@David BraultHmm, I would like to see some hand axes and wheel lock pistols for Knights of Malta crewmen, and maybe some enclosed helmets and combination firearms. Doesn't have to be a set I would be happy with a sprue.
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@Brian Van De Walker oh that would certainly be great! But given the choice, I'd rather they first explored some more niche corners of the period model-wise (Ottomans, Balkans, etc.) before circling back to Western Europe.
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@Kinjack Honestly, I think if you wanted to make a companion set for ottomans then HRE troops wont really do, it just feels like theres too much overlap with the conquistadors box at least for the earliers periods. I think a muscovy/poland-lithuania box would be best. it could just be titled zaporozhian cossacks and as far as sales go people wanting to play the newly popular Kislev would need them as troops options. Even without warhammer the game "by fire and sword" has shown a level of demand for that era and region
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@Ethan Gilbert I don't disagree. I'm not expecting a generic European renaissance infantry set to be released for a good while for just the reason you mentioned - there is some overlap with the Conquistador set.
But then if you're talking about having a Poland-Lithuania and Ottoman partner set you're still looking at difficulties when it comes to aligning sets within the range chronologically.
I'm presuming when you talk about Polish troops you would be referring to the Great Turkish War (1683-1699) with Ottoman troops concurrant to that. Which is great, except the Conquistadors set features early-mid 16th C. Spanish troops, more than a century of difference. So if someone wanted to have WA Ottomans and Spanish Imperial troops fighting against each other there would probably be some anachronisms there.
The fact that the term 'renaissance' covers such a wide span of history makes this topic really difficult to be honest, figure companies and wargamers don't make it easy on themselves. You have people talking about 15th century landschnekts and Italian troops in what surmounts to essentially medieval armour and yet in the same range you have the English Civil War and the Holy League and the dawn of modern warfare.
At the end of the day I would bet a couple hundred squid that the next set WA come out with in the range is Winged Hussars. They'd sell really well for conversions and people just like them. Naturally I think this would lead to some infantry to support them.
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@Ethan Gilbert honestly Cossacks vs Ottoman Jannisaries would make for a really good pairing of sets. especially since they were regular enemies historically. though i'd say that the Jannisaries need to be field uniforms rather than the parade uniforms. the parade uniforms are certainly flashier.. but they're also ungainly and pretty much impossible to fight in. though i'd include maybe one body per sprue of the standard set that includes some fo the fancier stuff like the big hats and animal pelts, to represent higher officers (who might well wear the dressier uniform style in the field anyway), and you can do a army builder set later to fill out the ranks more.
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@Hudson Adams
Reiter would be great.
https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/65470/reiter-aka-schwarzreiter
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How about "Wars of the Sun King" Western Armies c. 1670 to 1698, with Tricorne head options for c. 1698 to 1720ish.
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I know its a ways off but what about safavid persians? they would make a great opposition force to any ottoman box and persians are ever overlooked. light cav with guns and bows, light infantry with a growing core of gunmen
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For the Ottomans the jannisaries, azab, akinji and sipahi, to my knowledge would be able to cover the professional and irregular aspects of the "main" ottoman armed forces.
Other aspects of the ottoman army could be found in the proposed eastern european infantry and cavalry and the gendarmes or knights to represent the ottoman allies in the balkans and hungary, like the voynik and others. If the heads and arms of the renaissance range are all interchangable the potential for conversion for ottoman influenced western and balkan troops could be huge.
Sipahi, right is an earlier style of helmet, known as the turban helm, still in use in the 16th century.
Example of possible conversion potential.
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Italian wars-1: infantry
In this suggestion i would like to show examples of generic infantry for use in multiple nations armies, being hopefully useful for the french companies, italian mercenary bands and the feudal levies of germany and possibly hungary and beyond.
from what i have read and seen, the standard infantry of the time wore leggings and other tight clothes in the fashions of the time. Puffed clothes, although not slashed like the iconic landsknecht just yet, were also common. ratio of armour is fine at 2/5 like the conquistador kit, with pikes and shot with other weapons being included or found in other kits. helmets could be open sallets, late kettle helms and barbutes up to morions, which were developed in italy. The hair, hat or colour scheme would designate the nation itself.
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Italian wars-2: men at arms
In the 16th century the heavily armoured cavalrymen, in plate mail, in western fashion reached its apex, yet also saw its swift decline from military supremacy because of pike and shotte. Yet, the man in armour stayed in use for a good portion of the 16th century.
Once again the set could cover the time period with only a few changes. The riders themselves, if being 5 men, could be 2 Italian style, with flat plates of armour, 2 maximillian gothic with heavily fluted armour and one with the 16th century surcoat, which was longer than the previous century. The use for fantasy could also be present with the kit itself or further accesory sprues like more fantastical helmets could influence them.
The horses, in my opinion should have the barding seperate, as the option was removed or added due to the wealth or inclanation of the state or mercenary itself.
Finally, helmets could cover various periods, from the late sallets of the late 15th to early 16th century to the maxmillian/close helmets throughout, and the burgonet with falling buffe of the later period. the helmets of other kits could also be used to represent different nations with more open faced styles perhaps representing a free rider or medium cavalryman, or nationality, like morions representing spanish or landsknecht helmets representing germans.
example of early period armour
Italian styles of armour
Maximillian gothic style armour
Examples of horse barding/ knights surcoats
Later helmets with falling buffe visor.
Thank you for your patience, and i'll see you when i get back out of my locker :)
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Italian Wars-3: Landsknechts
Landsknechts became one of the most prominent mercenaries in the 16th century, dressed outrageously for the standards of the times, due to maximillian the first, who relieved them of the strict sumptuary laws in the Holy Roman Empire to improve morale and reward them for taking part in a particularily dangerous career. This resulted in the iconic appearance, and turned them into a staple of the renaissance. From Pavia to Rome to Vienna, if the client had money they would fight the enemy.
Once again the kit would have a mix of armour, pike and shot, but the armour and "other" weapons would be a bit different from other kits. The zweihander, halberd and katzbalger would be good to show landsknechts, and various german helmets would show the origin of the mercenaries. "dopplesoldner" would be made by giving the soldiers the swords or halberds and heavier armour.
Hats, helmets and feathers could be included to decorate as wanted, as the swiss were similar in appearance but slightly more conservative and with a vertical cross of saint denis instead of the diagonal badge of st andrew, the field symbol of the landsknecht.
Landsknecht clothing
Landsknecht weaponry
landsknecht armour
Landsknecht helmets
Thanks for reading, and i'll see you again! :)
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@Davy Jones
Yoeman work. Thank You.
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@JTam
Thanks man, i really appreciate it.
I always thought that the renaissance period is a really slept on period of time with vibant armies, important battles and tie ins to other genres such as fantasy, like warhammer, as many of the human old world factions that aren't bretonnia tie in to the period without much change.
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Eh, there's already a bunch of offerings. Just look at the discussions around William's conquistador and landsknecht armies.
It certainly makes DoW and Empire the cheapest factions to get started though, outside of maybe some of the smaller Mantic deals. Ain't anybody got a copyright on the concept of a landsknecht, so competition drives the price down.
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@Davy Jones @Blutze
There's always a place for more Landsknechts.
There's a huge ready made audience Thanks to Warhammer. Even 1/5 of the plastic Landsknechts market is still much bigger market than almost any other historical troop type.
There's only one available Landsknecht kit in plastic anyway.... and they are sadly puny.
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A thread for Winged Hussars:
https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/79751/polish-winged-hussar
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Italian wars/Battle for the balkans(WIP name):
stradiots/eastern european light cavalry
This kit will be useful to portray the famous and iconic light cavalrymen of the balkans and eastern europeans. The stradioti were famous and effective light cavalry who were hired by the venetians by the colonial possesions in dalmatia and the adriatic. The stradioti also recruited from the greeks, albanians and cypriots, survivors of the ottoman onslaught. Other units like this included wallachian/romanian light cavalry and the serbian and hungarian hussars. This style of warfare, a form of guerilla nomadism, perfected from the fighting in the region, sandwiched as it was between various great powers, from hungary to hapsburgs to the ottomans. The key elements of the stradiots or hussars was the long jacket with the facing on the front, the unsusually shaped shield, an rectangle with a sweeping top. The weaponry was lances, maces, curved sabres and bows. The headgear should be varied to show the various nationalities of these cavalrymen. Helmets, in my opinion should not be prioritised and instead could be taken from other kits to show the influences of the various nations hiring them, like wallachians with ottoman helmets, or stradiots with italian helmets, or hungarian hussars with german helmets.
stradiots
wallachians
hungarian/serbian hussars
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@Davy Jones
Was not familiar with this troop type. Appreciate the post and pics.
The Balkans is an exotic place. Really like the distinctive shields.
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@Davy Jones
Some pictures related to your post:
https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/80062/the-renaissance-in-romania
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@JTam Very nice those would sell. Nice to paint great to see.
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