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Light Vehicles Possibilities

  • DM

    I realize there is another thread about tanks but wanted to make one more focused on the possibility of lighter vehicles. 

    I personally would like Death Fields to focus more on skirmish gameplay vs the large army battles of say 40k and with that in mind I'll list below what vehicles I think would fit with each faction.  

     

    Grognards

    FT-17 Light Tank

    Cute little tank that lore wise could be used by the Grognards because it was the first "modern" tank. 

    With it being a 2 person light tank it would fight perfect in a skirmish style game and would give the Grognards a heavy weapon to pair with their calvary we will hopefully get down the line.  

    Possible Loadouts:

    -Laser gatling gun for ranged anti infantry

    -Cannon or mortar for anti armor or emplacement 

    -Flamethrower for shock and awe 

     

    Space Brits

    Bren Gun Carrier 

    One of the most produced armored vehicles in history, and simple kit to make with it being open topped.

    The carrier would give the Brits small unit transport capacity and could also have an up armed version mounting heaver guns. 

    Possible Loadouts:

    -Transport version with passengers being able to use their weapons and maybe a mounted machine gun

    -"Gun" variant that sacrifices transport space for a cannon or flamethrower instead 

     

    Cannon Fodder

    Construction Power Armor

    Not a vehicle technically but could be something they stole or scavenged for a construction site that would give them something stronger than just infantry. 

    Would be a very modular set with actual construction parts as well as jury rigged weapon systems. 

    Bonus points if the set could include spare heads so the armor could be used by other factions as well. 

    Loadouts:

    No set loadouts for this one, more of add whatever weapons you wanted onto the arms and torso. 

    -Saws, drills, rebar clubs, etc.

    -Flamethrowers, low tech autoguns, industrial nail guns, stolen laser cannons

     

    Einherjar

    Not sure on what would fit for a light vehicle for these guys, I imagine them more having genetically enhanced animals like bears or wolves than vehicles. 

    Please let me know if you have any suggestions!

     

    Raumjager

    With the Raumjager being based on the Germans you have a ton of vehicles to choose from but most are too large in my opinion, even a Sd Kfz 251 halftrack is a little large for a skirmish game. 

    With that in mind I here are 2 options I've seen discussed elsewhere on the forum. 

    Ketternkrad

    Funky looking tracked motorcycle that could look pretty cool decked out with some sci fi gear. 

    would be able to carry 2 or 3 infantry on it and like the Bren Carrier could have a weaponized version. 

    With it being a glorified motorcycle it could be tiny and fit in most places infantry can. 

    Loadouts:

    -Transport, standard version with no mounted weapons, mounted infantry could fire their rifles, etc. 

    -Self propelled gun, the front tire could be removed and then it could mount a heavy cannon or machine gun and act more like a mobile heavy weapon platform. 

    -Rocket battery, mount a rocket pod on the back where the passengers go and use it as a barrage weapon. 

    Wiesal AWC

    This vehicle is a more modern pick but would fit nicely with the Raumjager's being founded from paratroopers with it being an air transportable vehicle.

    Could have a special rule allowing it to be airdropped into the middle of the battle field. 

    Loadouts:

    -Autocannon, combo anti infantry and light vehicles

    -Missiles, could be an indirect artillery platform or just pack more of a punch against large groups of infantry and vehicles

    -APC, the real life APC version is technically based on the lengthened Wiseal 2 but could be included anyways to give more options. 

     

    Hover Bikes

    These bikes could be for cross faction use and have a wide range of body styles; civilian, light weight scout, armored military, etc. 

    This category would be very open to modification and could be transport only or have a mounted weapon as well. 

     

    These are a few ideas I came up with or stole from others on the forum here, do you think these would be a good fit for Death Fields? Let my know of any suggestions you have!

  • JTam

    I really like the sci-fi FT17 idea.

    Did you see Pzkpfw Steves' awesome FT17 Sentinal here?:

    https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/44411/my-grognard-vehicle-3d-models

    Also of course, really like the sci-fi Kettenkrad idea.

    Edit:

    Like the Bren gun carrier concept too.  

    And the hoverbikes. 

    I guess I like all the ideas.

  • JTam

    Einherjer need Trikes.  For reasons.

  • DM

    @JTam Yea I saw his walker, its pretty awesome looking, but I was thinking the FT-17 as a regular tank would probably appeal to more people since its more "grounded"

    Some Einherher Bikers on souped up Trikes would be pretty funny. 

  • JTam

    A little sci-fi FT17. 

    How would you sci-fi up/ modernize an FT17 to survive on a far future battleground? 

    Smaller modern track links.  Bigger, updated engine which causes changes to the back deck and funky exhausts.  (No changes to suspension as it's just too important to the look).  Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) blocks on hull front and turret.  Smoke launchers.   Laser cannon for the main gun with external power cables snaking out of the sides of the turret to the gun.  Improved turret cupola with all around vision blocks.   Cupola needs a hatch that can be posed open for a Commander figure.  The little front drivers hatch needs to be able to be open/raised so as you can see the little Grognard head of your choice driving it.  

    Alternate main weapon for turret:

    Large flamer.  Automatic cannon.  

    Bonus points if you have an optional gnarly chainsaw attachment you can stick on the front of the hull.

  • JTam

    Maybe WGA could make a standard FT17 to support their WW1/WW2 French Infantry kit.  And sell it with a second sci-fi bits sprue in a different box to support the Grognards.  

    I vote for 1/48 if an actual FT17 kit is done.  

    (1/48 fits modern manufacture 28mm miniatures better.  Has cross over appeal for modelers.  1/48 wargaming models market place is far less crowded.)

  • DM

    A standard FT 17 with a sci-fi upgrade sprue would probably be the best way for WGA to sell it. They could do the same thing with the Ketternkrad for the Germans and the Bren Carrier if they make WW2 British. 

    Crossover sets are a great marketing idea. 

    Not sure on the 1/48 scale idea however, I think the WW1/WW2 sets are not heroic so the FT 17 could look huge next to them. I like the idea of keeping it scaled appropriately so it blends together better. Much rather it look a little small next to the Grognards, it was a tiny tank, than huge next to regular WW1 French. 

  • JTam

    @Dalton McCormick 

    Reference 1/56 versus 1/48 it's all I the eye of the beholder........

    But in my experience 1/56 is just too small for 28mm.  (I should do up a post with comparison pics....)  Look at the tank commander that came with your 1/56 kit (who is the right size for the vehicle) - he's tiny compared to your infantry.  It looks like it's bring your kid to war day.  1/48 isn't too big, it's the right size.  Your Mileage May Vary.

  • JTam

    Is there so much difference in scale between the Grognards and WW1 French miniatures?

    I think someone posted pics somewhere.... off to look.

    0 likes
  • Yronimos Whateley

    I think I heard on an interdimensional Death Fields game broadcast that the Cannon Fodder's "power-armor" are actually construction exo-suits stolen from the hellish work-camps on the prison planet that the Cannon Fodder were abducted from in the middle of a particularly violent jailbreak.  These machins, souped up with makeshift armor and clumsily-repared weapons scavenged from the battlefields after a fight, are not precisely vehicles, as you say, but they do make for entertaining crowd-pleasers when unleashed onto the battlefield with the motors for its saws, drills, or grinders screaming, as the other teams' infantry scramble for cover!

     

    As for the Einherjar, they might be using anything, but I saw them using a smaller version of one of these vehicles used for drilling shelters into the low mountains of their heavy-gravity home world:

    Fun facts:  the crowds went wild every time that machine would pop up out of the ground behind the Einherjar's enemies' fortified positions, but the crowd went even wilder when the machine's atomic engine exploded, showering the battlefield with radioactive debris and bombarding all contestants and many spectators with a hilarious burst of gamma rays, resulting in the Einherjar's lead collapsing into a tie game, 0 to 0.  The Einherjar coaches took the whole thing with surprisingly philosophical under-reaction:  these stocky combatants are used to living dangerously, and at least it wasn't a defeat!

  • Benjamin Hayward

    I'd be all-in on that construction power armor!

  • E

    Cannon fodder aren't formers miners or prisoners, they're desperate veterans on their last fight. I think even a command box would be unsuited to them. at most, something scavenged and very illegal. although hover bikes or live mounts might work, with each one being more valuable than the individual using it, or some generic vechicles belonging to the employers. after all, most cannon fodder won't survive their next fight, and they can't come back.

  • Yronimos Whateley

    "These are the dregs of the Death Fields sport: the washouts, the mental cases, the warriors who just can't cut it or the teams whose strategy, training, or cunning have fallen behind new, younger franchises... These are also the one final chance for an owner to profit. Cobbled together into a horde and given basic weaponry, the typical Cannon Fodder bout is an ugly display of sheer numbers thrown at a standard roster team. Defeat is an almost foregone conclusion, but not always, and audiences often root for these men, women, and beings sent to fight to a final, Real Death."

    The dregs and washouts, mental cases, and warriors who just couldn't cut it?  I think it covers a lot of ground.  Combined with the chains, shackles, and collars that come with the set, I can easily see some of these guys pulled from the most violent prisons and mental asylums from across space and time, to help reinforce the broken, beaten, burned-out, and outdated leftovers from past Death Fields matches, where their lack of discipline and training and teamwork are almost made up for by their sheer, diabolically inventive wickedness and violence....

    I find something cynically dystopian about them, as if they were given a choice:  Either execution, a life sentence of hard labor in the unobtainium mines of Altair 9, or an opportunity to redeem themselves... on the Death Fields!

  • E

    @Yronimos Whateley I sort of forgot about most of that except "standard equipment" "final death" "fallen behind new, younger franchises" and "last chance for an owner to profit", but lack of proper, heavy equipment still makes sense to me. I imagine exo-suits would be a bit too expensive for them. but mounts and bikes could probably cover plenty of niches without making them too setting specific.

  • BVD

    @Dalton McCormick If I am following you train of thought right I agree I think.  I would rather have a "regular tank" version of the FT-17 for history gaming in historical scale instead of Death Fields scale.

    That said if its going to be for Death Fields first in its “heroic scale” it should be SciFied up right out of the box no question, otherwise we should just stick with MENG’s Toon Tanks, same deal in general for historically inspired vehicles (either scified up out of the box or Historical scale for history gaming which is conservatively is 1/56 to 1/50).

    Of the things you mentioned I think the generic “everyone can use it but mostly cannonfodder use it” construction/power armor is actually the best option followed by the hover bikes.

  • Spenetrator

    Einherjar on trikes would definitely be my vote. 

  • DM

    @Brian Van De Walker  Thinking more on the subject, I agree and think if WGA is going to release vehicle kits they should scale them first to historical and then offer the sci fi upgrade kits to convert them to Death Fields. 

    @JTam  I guess the actual scale doesn't matter that much, more importantly they need to look in scale compared to WGA's miniatures, if that means they end up closer to 1/48 than 1/56 so be it.

    And over all the best bet is probably to go with the multi faction kits first such as the construction armor and hover bikes to test the markets with something that the largest amount of people will be interested in. 

  • M

    if created for historicals use, the Renault FT-17 would be a perfect one to start with.

    it served in WW1 with the French, British, and American forces, and post WW1 it went on to continue to serve with the British and French, and to be copied and liscense produced by America (M1917), Italy (FIAT 3000) and Soviet Union (modifed into the T-18) and saw a lot of use during interwar conflicts. during WW2 the french used them at the start of the war, and they were in service with a lot of smaller countries (poland, yugoslavia, Greece, etc.) as well as places like china, despite being considered obsolete. Nazi Germany also used captured french ones for airbase defense and to patrol occupied territory across europe (to free up more modern tanks for the frontlines)

    so it is a fairly ubiqitous vehicle for the great war line and can easily be used with the world ablaze line as well.
    combined with the scifi upgrade sprue, that is three product lines that could take advantage of one kit.

  • JTam

    Well said Mithril2098. 

    The FT-17 is an incredible useful kit for WW1 AND WW2 gaming.  For those more into the esoteric one could use the FT-17 for the Polish-Soviet war or even perhaps the Soviet-Afgan war (among numerous other conflicts).

    (Getting around in WW2)

    (A supposedly still operational one in the Soviet-Afghan War)

    And it would just be a great little model for the sci-fi table top.  Can't help but notice it's basically an armored Sentinel.  

  • BF

    I would love to see this done as a basic kit with sci-fi options (legs and or hover jets), as well as the Einherjar on choppers and trikes, which would blend them in to my scrunty army.

  • MM

    Would they sell that many FT17s?

    I honestly can't see it. How many do they have to sell to turn a profit?

    I think much better to concentrate on sets that will sell loads.

  • JTam

    @Michael McEwan 

    Only WGA knows how much they are selling of what products.

    However, we know WGA continues to expand the WW1 line.  One might conclude it is profitable.  Two of the major powers in WW1 used the FT17 extensively.  Anyone buying the WGA WW1 French set is probably going to buy a FT17. 

    If they do WW1 Americans anyone buying that will probably get an FT17.  (What would my 28mm LTC  Patton command otherwise?)

    The FT17 is fairly popular (but only available in resin/printed) for Bolt Action/WW2.  Someone did quite well at tournaments zerging multiple FT17s.  

    It seems likely (from sneak peaks) that WGA is coming out with Italian tankette kits.  I can only imagine the wide spread, two wars FT17 would be at LEAST as popular.

    Having the sci-fi sprue/version of the FT17 REALLY changes things though.  Let's address the 500 pound gorilla - I think one can safely say there are more 4OK players than all the historical players (all periods, all scales, all rules sets) put together.  A sci-fi FT17 fits the WW1 in the far flung future look of Guard tanks perfectly.  It meshes well with the new hotness of the trench fighting Krieg.  It easily matches the weapons and rough size of a Guard Sentinel.  It would sell - a lot.

  • BVD

    @JTam

    FT17 also was used by a good number of minor powers (including China) in WW2 as well as  Japan and Germany in WW2, likewise in WW1 I think there were examples of Gemans capturing it.

      So yeah it would likely sell very well, frankly I am surprised Rubicon and Italeri  has not both made one yet. Plus its steampunky, so you could probably add upgrades sprues for Fantasy and VSF as well as SciFi.

    Also a different note, I heard somewhere that supposedly the FT17 was inspiration  for Bonaparte from Domain Tank Police though I don't quite see it now.😆

     

  • JTam

    @Dalton McCormick 

    "With the Raumjager being based on the Germans you have a ton of vehicles to choose from but most are too large in my opinion, even a Sd Kfz 251 halftrack is a little large for a skirmish game."

    What about the Sd Kfz 250 halftrack?  It's not Kettenkrad tiny, but it's pretty small.

    There were numerous variants - command, radio, ammo carriers, and weapons carriers/platforms.  Some variants carried a mortar, others an automatic cannon, and some a 75mm howitzer among other weapons.

     

     

     

     

  • DM

    @JTam Sd Kfz 250 could definitely work. It is a little bigger than the FT-17 or Bren Carrier but I think it would still be small enough to fit the "skirmish" game size. 

    And all those weapons options would give a lot of options on how to use it on the tabletop. 

    One of the reasons I mentioned the Kettenkrad and Wiesal instead of the 250 is that they are both airborne vehicles which fits with the Raumjager's origins as paratroopers.

    But the Sd Kfz would still be a great option and would be very good to have for WW2 Germans. 

  • JTam

    @Dalton McCormick 

    Good point on the Kettenkrad and Wiesel having Airborne/Air Mobile roots that fit the Raumjager's background.

    0 likes
  • Yronimos Whateley

    If WGA does dable in (more?) cross-genre vintage tankettes, these seem like winners to me - most have a sort of "diesel-punk" sci-fi aesthetic that might blnd well with Death Fields in general, while the Greyhound looks weirdly near-future to me:

     

    WWII Britain (and others) - Humber armored car:

     

    WWII USA - Greyhound armored car:

     

    WWII Germany - Sd.Kfz 221/222/223:

     

    WWII German - Kfz 13:

  • John Wilson

    @Yronimos Whateley I do like some of the 'hound' designs for armoured cars...Staghound, Wolfhound & Boarhound.

  • Sam Bellamy

    @JTam I agree that 1:48 often fits better. I only have pics of T-34:s to compare betweed scales. But this is what they look like.

    T-34

    T-34

    T-34
    T-34

  • Yronimos Whateley

    The interesting thing to me is that the height is almost identical, but the footprint on the table is definitely different, while the hatches on the smaller version of the T-34 look entirely too small for the 28mm figures to squeeze through.

    To be honest, though, both tanks look fantastic on the table, and I'd be just as happy with either scale (or a mix of both), compared to most of the chunky 28mm stuff made for 40K gaming...

    If this were scale modeling, that could be a problem, but as pawns/tokens for wargames, both are fantastic.

  • JTam

    @Sam Bellamy 

    Awesome pics/comparisons.  Thanks Brother.

    I think the 1/48 tank is the better match to reality.

    I've been fortunate enough to examine a T-34 first hand.  It's a sizable vehicle.  It is not the size of a VW Bug as the 1/56 T-34 appears to be.

     

     

  • Grumpy Gnome

    Scale really matters to me. Not so much as what is truly accurate as what is artistically pleasing to my eye. My painting and terrain building is as big a part of the hobby to me as the actual gaming.

     

    And getting back into WW2 gaming again lately has been giving me an artistic headache.


    I thought I had the 1/48 or 1/56 scale vehicles for 28mm figures controversy resolved in my head in favor of Warlord/Rubicon/Italeri 1/56... but now you folks are making me rethink my decision. Argh. Now I am leaning towards 1/48 as I seem to artistically favor Warlord “heroic” 28mm over Perry “true scale” 28mm. And I have yet to figure out exactly where WA sits... but I am guessing in between the two. 

    Argh! 

    At least I have no invested too much time and money yet on painting models.

    The one painted M4 Sherman I have is I believe a Warlord Games model and it did seem a bit dinky next to Warlord US Infantry. But when I looked into it the height seemed right and I relied on that.

    However as stated above, the comparison photo really makes the difference in footprint rather than height.

    Argh!

    I have spent a lot of time in and on M2 Bradleys as well as M106 APCs (mortar version of the M113). The APCs felt dinky compared to the Bradleys. The Bradleys felt dinky compared to the few times I was around Abrams MBTs. 

    And I was surprised by how big WW2 tanks have been compared to how big I thought they were when visiting museums in Normandy as well as here in Germany. Was that in part because so much time spent with incorrectly scaled toy tanks?

    Argh!

    My head hurts.

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

    https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/

  • SS

    Users of the FT-17 (most of them):

    France

    USA

    Italy

    Russia/USSR

    Japan

    China

    Belgium

    Greece

    Finland

    Romania

    Spain

    Siam/Thailand

    Germany

    Afghanistan

    Yugoslavia

  • DM

    @Yronimos Whateley I somehow completly forgot about the British armored cars, those would be great vehicles for Death Fields as well! 

    I thought some more on the construction power armor idea for the cannon fodder, WGA could make them similar to the exoskeletons from the movie Elysium, as in bolted direclty to the bones of the wearer. This would give it more of a desperate, last ditch feel. However, this would make it harder for the power armor to be cross faction. 

  • M

    honestly giving the cannonfodder an Aliens inspired industrial PA would sell well i think, since that type of suit is pretty popular, and with the right weapons options could be used for all sorts of games.

  • BVD

    What about Hilux Technicals? Those could work as light vehicles and they get kitbashed so much in the 1:1 scale I think they might be a real winner🤣.

     

    Though maybe something more professional looking might be better:

  • Grumpy Gnome

    @Brian Van De Walker You reminded me of the truck in the movie Terminator.

     

    Home of the Grumpy Gnome

    https://thegrumpygnome.home.blog/

  • John Wilson

    I've always liked the video game COD Infinite Warfare take on utility vehicles, bare bones and designed to be as portable as possible for marine landings... 

    https://www.artstation.com/artwork/8DD4m

     

     

    The moon buggy.

    https://www.artstation.com/artwork/NzzdJ

     

  • DM

    @Brian Van De Walker Technicals would be very nice for general modern/ sci fi wargaming as well as Death Fields for sure! 

    But I would definitely want enough option parts and extras to have the ablitly to make each one look wildly different. 

    If WGA was able to make a basic truck frame that could be then modified by adding different body panels, changing the tires to tracks or hover units, and multiple weapon systems that would be amazing. 

  • BVD

    @Dalton McCormick Well that is the best part, I was thinking a simple truck design that similar to the marvel crises core cars except on a single base sprue:

    Then do several upgrade sprues (Rocket pods and machine gun stands to full armored back cabins and other fun stuff). 

    They could also add a part that allows one to use the heavy weapons parts for things like this except space french:

  • Joe Dog

    @JTam I love the idea of the Bren Carrier based light AFV.

    While they are available as model kits, model kits tend to be too flimsy and fiddly for tabletop gaming use.

    I would love to see some light AFV kits that follow the design philosophy of the old RT/40k Rhino Mk1 - where the kit was very modular and basic, so you could assemble it in minutes, but very easy to customize.

    About a half a dozen pieces for the vehicle itself, plus accessories: Upper body, Lower Body, Inside Right Track, Outside Right Track, Inside Left Track, Outside Left Track then some additional bits for options (weaponry, comms gear, stowage, armor plates., etc.).   Turreted vehicles would have a couple of additional parts for the turret, as well as gun options.

    One option could be multi-wheeled instead of tracked (a Bren Carrier based model with six wheels would look like an armored version of the Space 1999 vehicles).

    Bren Carrier, Half Track (SDKFZ style), Armored Cars, Light Tanks/Tankettes, "box" APC (M113/FV432 style), BTR/LAV/Stryker style APC, motrorcycles (with and without sidecars), Kettenrads/trikes/ATVs, weapons carriers (like the M274 "Mule"), Jeeps, etc.

  • JTam

    @Joe Dog 

    Great idea to include wheels and tracks.

    The old school Rino is perfect example of what a miniatures games model should be.  That thing was like six main parts?

    Ideally the sci fi Bren would have roughly the same footprint as a 40K Centaur.

    A sci fi weapons carrier Kettenkrad seems like a decent stand in for:

    And a sci fi FT17 a good stand in for:

     

  • DL

    I just so happen to be working on such a thing - a 1:35th Renault FT somewhat modified to go alongside my Les Grognards.

  • AM

    French MB1 Walker

    I picked up some Codename Colossus STL files for my French and Germans, wish they'd release the British models in 1:48. They also have some resin models as well. 

    https://machinationstudio.com/digital-stl-files/

     

  • JTam

    @Alex M 

    That's awesome.  Thanks for sharing these.

  • GM

    @Dalton McCormick @Sam Bellamy @Yronimos Whateley @JTam In Si/Fi I don`t ever think of scale as being a problem, but when you hit Fantasy or Modern Si/Fi ?.  Say for an example a Walking Dead game, you get your figures together a few Hasslefree,  Project  Z, and some Crooked Dice. You make buildings, and some roads to represent a Motel, Drive in Movie, and a Small Diner.

    Collect  some toy cars and lorries 1/64th/ 1/50th. Then you get your military machines,  looking to day at a post, I saw  the real life size differances in WW2 and Modern, Now theres several exellent Strykers in 1/56th, 1/50TH. and 1/48th  with each scale diviation each machine gets bigger,  way bigger . Then you put a MRAP on the board and "Holly Crap" you`ve got a "Jawa Sand Crawler" and all that hard work on the boards , buildings etc is crushed by a huge vehicle. Figures are getting better, scale is becomming real, we slowly are getting good quallity machines, to scale with proportional figures. Look at Rubicon and see the future of WW2 and Modern vehicles /figures in 156th you`ll be suprisced, Cheers all.

  • AM

    Just stumbled onto some things that might be interesting, I know not everyone likes STL because 3D printing is basically an expensive hobby all on its own. 

    Here is a small light walker that may or may not work for everyone, I kinda like this for Einherjar.

    Found this very Rolls Royce style half track, looks good for a Great Weird War vibe.

    This Spider tank just oozes style 

    This one isn't an STL file, but looks pretty good for Les Grognards.

    This little light mech looks like it could easily work with Death Feilds.

  • ZS

    @Dalton McCormick I think they should do mecks like the mantis in halo but some tanks would be pretty cool 

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