Thought I'd start up a thread on what people would like to see for this period since there isn't one yet.
I love the Dark Ages, definitely my fave period along with Renaissance.
I'd like to see some Fyrd/levy figures who could be appropriate for early all the way to late Saxons. Sort of like the Gripping Beast "Dark Ages Infantry" set but better ;)
A kit of all female Viking Shield Maidens.
Historically accurate? Almost certainly not. Do I care? No. Not even a little bit.
Some armored for Hearthguard, some just tunics and leather. Goal should be a small Saga force in a box.
Not my timeline but women with weapons... ? ... can it get better...?
Combined with the female cannon fodder... perfekt for me... 🤣
I would be down for a box or 6 of shield maidens... or Female celts, or any other wild "barbarian" lady. Or Maybe just an Olga Kurylenko miniature. Or a boxed set of Olga Kurylenko multipart miniatures...
@William Redford
Yes.
Also, how does no 28mm Thusnelda miniature exist?
#NoJustice #ThusneldaNow #RomansOut
@Kinjack
Great idea for a thread. Thanks!
The Wargames Atlantic 2021 poll/survey/contest winners:
Those, like the women warriors, might verge "a little" on fantasy territory, but I don't mind.
I'm trying to think of some Dark Ages subjects that aren't already well-covered by sets like WA's Irish and Goths or Romans, or otherwise beaten to death (Vikings, Danes, etc.), and not a lot comes to mind, until I start looking eastward to e.g. Mongols, Persians, and the like.
What would be some unusual subjects that simply couldn't be done with Irish, Goths, Romans, Vikings, Danes, Franks, and the like?
These are all Fantasy sets! LOL
@Hudson Adams Olga Kurylenko is real! Which makes a multi part Olga Kurylenko set a historical set!
Thusnelda is a historical figure. Although her mini is more of a resin or metal task.
Victrix did manage to get Boudicca in plastic for their chariot sprues.
@Grumpy Gnome
True that. A really neat kit.
Actually, I don't know who was more brilliant.
Victrix for getting Boudica on the chariot sprue, or Warlord for this:
The Wargames factory chariot had a Boudica as well. A really awful Boudica that may not have been human... 
I guess you really cant complain about the Wargames Factory sets though. I think it was like $14 for 3 chariots at one point.
A expansion Set for the Goth sprue to make North Sea Germans like Saxones, Angli and Juti. Post-Roman Ridged Helmets and similary Stuff.
Those shield maidens would find a better place in a thread on the Fantasy sub-board.
@Steffen Seitter have you seen the upcoming Victrix Romano-British set? Looks to have loads and loads of head options that might interest you.
While the shieldmaidens above are largely "Hollywoodized” there is serious evidence for female warriors.
https://historycurator.com/viking-shield-maidens-historically-accurate/
https://www.livescience.com/Viking-shield-maiden-facial-reconstruction.html
@Grumpy Gnome
I read the second link:
"Viking Shield Maiden Facial Reconstruction".
It is amazing what science can do now.
Reconstruction:
Looking forward to Franks, and would also love to see Sasanids, Bulgarians, Dark Age cavalry.... Irish/Scots, and Byzantine Romans
OK. I've discovered incontrovertible proof that Viking Shield Maidens existed.
If they didn't exist, they couldn't get sucked into space to become Death Fields Cannon Fodder. BOOM! Science.
Hmm, while JTam and GG are making arguments for Shield Maidens (most of which seem to not really be that historically factual), with others echoing for things like Boudica. While there likely where shield maidens (they show up in some sagas) I am fairly confident they didn’t come in numbers to warrant a plastic labeled for real history gaming (even if there is a Saga board😆).
Women taking up arms to defend their homes from invaders is a common enough story elsewhere in history even in so called “patriarchal societies” and it is likely 90 to 99% of myths regarding shield maidens are from such incidents, it does not mean there is a dedicated class of female warriors among the Vikings (at least not in the way modern historians want😆). That all said this may make a better case for a female dark age civilian/rabble box with a few added weapon bits like a sword and spear in addition ersatz weapons like farming implements, maybe add a helmet head.
Personally though if WA where to do a straight "Female Barbarians" set, unless we are talking steppe girls, I would rather they just do them for fantasy and go in a more Edgar Rice Burroughs fur bikini/midriff tribal rout since that covers for several things at once both since: every unarmored or lightly armored adventurer profession woman is covered in a classical fantasy way (sometimes with the mere addtion of cloaks), does jungle and desert, fits in with any tech era by being that backwoods culture, it works for most elves, etc. Plus due to this pulp fiction trope being prevalent in media this is actually more useable for other things as its not locked into "dark ages box" for most people so other genres like pulp and VSF can have those Martian/Jungle/hollow earth warrior women. I would want this either in conjunction, before, or as a follow up to a Classic fantasy box of more “civilized” girls in plate cuirass armor and skirts for Female knights and women at arms.
@Hudson Adams Yeah, your right they are fantasy set ideas overall🤣.
Sassanid Empire isn't though and would make for a good talking point, we could also bring up the Mongols invasion of Asia (Crusades era). Rus and Koshars would be good.
The thing is, Mrs. GG and I are not keen to see yet more fur bikini minis... which seems to be a default when folks say, “female barbarian warrior”.
We are keen to see female models, with and without weapons, some in armor some in Norse apron dresses. Yes, we can alread find these in metal but we like plastic multi-part plastic kits for kitbashing.
So, While i would prefer a "realistic" non-cheesecake barbarian girls set... Like the pictures JTam posted... I would be ok with a Bikini set too. As there is a place in fantasy gaming for both, and platic sets are the gold standard. Having said that, I would prefer the more realistic by a large margin though.
RGD gaming has a set of Amazons being made by Wargames Atlantic. Not "Historical exactly, and maybe a little more "hey girls" than armored but they are more on that side than chain mail bikinis. 
@William Redford
The Amazons are from Wargames Atlantic or Wargames Factory?
@Grumpy Gnome
I don't think the statement "yes, you can already find these in metal" is really necessary on this board. Just about everything that's ever been or ever will be is available now in resin, metal, or file. If a subject's availability in other mediums is a show stopper, we would have nothing to talk about ;) We all want miniatures in a plastic kit for its ease of use, flexibility, and economy.
More "references" for Shield Maidens:
And just because it's really cool art:
@JTam Wargames Atlantic. The same sculptor made a set of Amazons for wargames Factory back in the day... but the sprue shot is from the new set in production. RGD gaming and Wargames Atlantic made their fauns, and now their Scythians, Satyrs and Amazons.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rgdgaming/28mm-hard-plastic-satyrs-and-scythians
@William Redford
Huh. Interesting. Thanks.
Anyone know who makes the center metal miniature?:
@William Redford
Nice! Thanks Brother.
@William Redford Yeah backed that KS and waiting for it, I need go and check to see if the shipping got paid already and the "backer kit" thing stuff is finalized (thought I did it awhile back though but stuff happens and forget details often).
@Grumpy Gnome
Well to each his own, I am not very keen on yet more dark age Scandies of any gender, and I say this as someone who is part Norwegian😆. (ie females will likely lead to males and there are enough Vikings and Saxons in plastic).
But if Female set is done for Viking age I think it should be as a generic "angry female peasant mob of the age" type set with farming tools and tourchs mostly with maybe one or two warrior weapon options at most (a couple of bound hand options to turn them into loot markers would probably also be useful for Saga games from what I have seen on the web, lots of "lets move stuff off the board" games).
To be honest what I would like to have is Female knights/women at arms in plate cuirass armor with skirts first, that said I know female barbarian sets will sell and the classic fantasy depiction for them along with several other female fantasy subjects traditionally tends to dress on the scantily clad side therefore meaning that’s a versatile way to do them for generic fantasy settings (plus female bare arm parts are going to be dang useful kit bashing down the line as more female sets are made).
Likewise for me its more of matching up thing since I want the male Fantasy Barbarians to be shirtless loin cloths Tarzan/Conan types and that means for the girls either bad unbelievable armor bikinis or comic book style tribal/jungle girl wear which is mostly variations on fur bikinis and in any case a heck of a lot more useful (you can see them in things like VSF or pulp settings, armorkinis and while we are on it properly dressed shield maidens not so much). Also to my knowledge the only “bikini clad” multipart plastic sets currently in production, at least for fantasy, are (outside of GW) mantic’s succubus and Shield Wolf’s shield maidens (both of which wear chain mail bikinis which as mentioned I agree are kind of dumb).
Finally thinking of the Viking as barbarians is almost on pare with thinking of the Chinese, east Indians, and Koreans from the same timeframe as Barbarians compared to the Franks and Saxons which frankly is nonsense, particularly since everyone elsein the world practically bathed way more than those two groups and seemed to have had higher tech and literacy levels.
To be clear I do not think of any culture, of any time period, as "barbarians”.
There are however some actions or activities by some cultures I would consider barbaric.
All that aside, I see various game settings use the aesthetics of Dark Ages and Classical Age Northern Europeans as “Barbarians”.
@Grumpy Gnome
Yeah, but those are also very limited artistic themes for fantasy Barbarians since most of the world isn't fjord land and most fictional barbarians don’t even wear chainmail. Even the WFB barbarians, which are closest to the classic fantasy war game standard, were “Viking inspired” only on paper, sculpting wise they were evil plate armor knights alongside classic 1980’s Conan types, which offered more artistic freedom of design to the sculptors and players alike (good fantasy barbarians go shirtless or go home).
Likewise Vikings and the "pretty much the same as Vikings” Saxons are done to death as Historical plastic set ideas, as in I along with 80% to 90% of the other wargame mini buyers are bored of seeing new releases of them, and I for one am not even interested in seeing either used as themes for dwarves, elves, orcs, and particularly humans for fantasy at this point either since that has actually been done to death too thank you Northstar, CMON, Reaper, etc.
At this point I think the real focus for Blood Oaths should be the Franks (could do the whole line as just them at this point) followed by the early Byzantines and maybe the Rus and other Eastern European groups hanging around at that time. If WA must do Vikings, same deal, focus on Eastern European Swedish incursions and trade route and double down on the looting/merchant aspect sculpt wise. I suppose Picts and Welsh would be other good options, but I get the feeling they would work just as well in Decline and Fall.
Came out last month I believe?
Sassanids are a major faction that haven't yet been blessed with a plastic kit or two. I'm unsure on the full level of differences their units would have had in comparison to the Achaemenid and Parthian dynasties' troops, but to have a concrete plastic set of Sassanid Infantry, one for Cavalry and perhaps even an Elephant would be most welcome.
Hunnic cavalry and infantry would be a couple of big sellers for the Decline and Fall side of the Dark Ages - perhaps Fireforge's Mongol cavalry and Steppe Infantry already cater for Huns but again a couple of specialised Hun kits wouldn't go amiss.
Norse-Gaels haven't been covered much in plastic as of yet - the Gripping Beast Irish set does cater to this somewhat by including a Dane Axe in each sprue, but an upgrade sprue for the WA Irish set that includes more Dane Axes, Viking-inspired heads and also some Galloglaich double-handed swords I imagine would go-down well with those who'd want to make a Dublin Irish, Manx or Orcadian warband.
I also want to see an alternative set of Welsh, I really can't get on board with the primitive barefoot look that Gripping Beast has given theirs. Because there is relatively little that has been written down regarding the nature of Welsh troops prior to the Middle Ages the subject is up for different interpretations, and personally I would have thought they would have been more advanced than the backwater Gaels and Picts (the Celtic Britons certainly were, and given that they had also been Romanised by this time, I would have thought they would have been closer to their Saxon rivals in terms of their equipment, just with their army structure revolving more around archers and heavy cavalry than heavy infantry).
As mentioned in another thread I'm a big fan of Mierce's Darklands models, and their Welsh models look really good:
Teulu (literally 'family' or household troops - would more often have been mounted in reality but some may well have fought on foot):
Rhyfelwyr (Warriors - standard Welsh infantry, I know these wouldn't all be wearing chainmail - that honour would have been reserved mainly for the Teulu - which is why I'm advocating for a set with unarmoured bodies, and the Shields would be round, but otherwise you get the picture):
Helwyr (Hunters - these would most likely have been the stereotypical Welsh border raiders, skilled with both a bow and a sword and with a cloak and hood that, while maybe wouldn't have had leaves affixed to it, would still have been dark green to better camouflage the wearer from pursuing enemies)
Saethwyr (Archers - ranged troops superior to those of other factions, but vulnerable in melee of course):
While they possess a bit of a fantastical edge, I would certainly like to see Wargames Atlantic make a version of these closer to historically-accurate Dark Ages costume, in particular if their parts are compatible with the Late Roman Lorica Hamata troops to allow a kitbasher to turn them into unarmoured Romano-British infantry or the Late Romans into Welsh Teulu on foot, and if WA release a Late Roman Heavy Cavalry set as well, the same method could be applied to make mounted Teulu.
Something like this:
WA have already made the especially characterful set of Irish for Blood Oaths, so I certainly hope that they'll see that a set of Welsh in the style I've mentioned would be an equally-characterful set to follow it up.
@Caratacus
Boom! Nicely presented ideas.
@Caratacus Is there a real diffrence between Norse-Gaels and Vikings during the post West Rome/Viking era? I think they are more intresting later in the HYW and other late middle ages and renaissance conflects (ie age of the Gallowglass, Kerns, etc.) particularly since the galloglaich double-handed swords seem like they are more of a post Dark Age thing.
Sassanids and/or thier Islamic replacements would be good. The Huns themselves are a bit more of a Decline and fall set though Tartarters the Khazars might be intresting but not sure if they made it to the Saga boards and kinda of are contraversy train convo topics at the moment. Picts would be okay, Romanized Welsh would be intresting though not sure how that would be diffrent from Saxons.
@Brian Van De Walker Huh, I thought Gallowglasses first appeared in the Dark Ages and didn't know they were first mentioned in the 13th Century. Still, just because they were first mentioned in writing in the 13th Century, it doesn't mean they didn't exist before that. It's still a possibility.
The Arabs are already served well by three decent Gripping Beast sets, I'd prefer to see a set of Sassanid Zoroastrian Persians specifically.
As I've already mentioned above Welsh that retain more Romano-British aspects would have more bows in a set than Saxons (the reason why I suggested enough bows should be included in the kit for all the bodies if desired), more moustached heads and very few beards, and while I advocated that a Welsh kit could be mixed with the Late Romans to make foot Teulu with Welsh heads on Roman bodies, they would be comparatively rare as most Teulu were mounted (though they would still exist, hence the reason I suggested the interchangeability in the first place). I'm assuming that any Late Roman Heavy Cavalry set WA make along the line has the same joins as their Late Roman heavy infantry.
@Caratacus
The "Dark Ages" (including the Viking era) is often viewed either as part of the Middle Ages or even most of Middle Ages since many sources in the US at least mark the start Middle Ages with the reign of Frankish King Charlemagne The Great and many people even think all the Crusades are part of the Dark Ages even though most of them happend well over a hundred years after the last Viking invasion of England (ie some books includes the 13th century or 1200's as part of the Dark Ages, from a general wargaming perspictive though it ends with William the Conqueror's invasion of England).
That all aside even if early Gallowglass did exist at the same time as Vikings they would likely look and have been armed the exact same way as the Vikings or Saxons (which is kind of boring since it has been done), if one is going to do them, for maxium fun value it should be at least when they started adding platemail arm armor to their chainmail coats which is much later on.
Likewise never said Arabs, just Islamic replacements and last I checked there isn’t good armored infantry for them in any case. Also I am not thinking of them and the Sassanid Zoroastrian Persians being done as one set, I am thinking 2 separate set groups that complement one another (ie VS. sets).
As to your arguement about Romano-British aspects, while the Welsh are indeed famous for their archery and having lots of bowmen due to a tradtion of bow hunting that likely predates the Roman invasion of the British isles, the latifundia and farm feed Romans never were and I am pretty sure the Romano British would fall into that same boat as well due to the prohibitivly heavy draw weight of war bows (being a Legion archer was literally like being in the British black riflemen unite during the Napoleonic wars except even more so, you would be an elite specialist with better pay and freaky muscles you trained hard, and yeah there documented an evidence it was this way). So I don't really see how bows would make them more "Romano-British" and not just a better depiction of Welsh but whatever.
@Caratacus Being of Welsh ancestral heritage and having lived in North Wales for a decade all things Welsh capture my attention.
The “barefoot” and “barelegged” Welsh trope is a popular one in various English mediums. I think in part to portray the Welsh as “backward and barbaric”. I have seen in games, movies and “historical accounts” but very little archeological evidence. If anyone can present some here , by all means please do so. I googled before posting this to see if some new evidence has come to light in the decade since I left Cymru.
@Brian Van De Walker
I think if Romano-Britons had more archers than Saxons it would be down to the idea of levied Sagittarii continuing after the Roman occupation has ended. And not something purely Welsh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarii
Follow the sources listed on wiki if you have the time and interest to persue more information on that.
On a side note, as a historical re-enactor during my time in Gwynedd, I repeatedly heard how Northern Welsh saw themselves as different from Southern Welsh and that the spear was preferred over the long bow in North Wales, contrary to the popular common trope of Medieval Welsh Archers.
It is interesting to wonder if the tradition of archery in South Wales evolved in part from Roman influence. The Welsh were influenced by the Roman occupation. The only part of Cyrmu unconquered was Ynys Mon (the Isle of Angelsey).
@Brian Van De Walker Being British I view the 'Dark Ages' period as being from the separation of Britain from the Western Roman Empire in the Fifth Century AD to the Battle of Hastings in 1066, which certainly kick-starts the Middle Ages for pretty much the whole of the British Isles given the way the Normans would attempt to conquer it all in the coming centuries. To be fair I can see where you are coming from with regards to the Middle Ages starting with Charlemagne in Europe, given that at Hastings the Normans made use of tactics that had been around on the continent long before 1066, and were probably pioneered by the armies of Charlemagne, but I'm sticking with the period structure I have always known and been taught.
@Grumpy Gnome I myself am English, but have always had a great respect for the Britons and their diaspora, and don't like seeing them being presented as being as backward as the Picts and Gaels. It was the Britons, alongside the Gauls, who reached the pinnacle of cultural and societal development the Celtic peoples reached prior to the Roman invasions, and between that and then being Romanised later, I can't believe they would degenerate into wearing tiny kilt-like tunics and running round barefoot, when their ancestors did neither by-and-large. Certainly the best portrayal I've seen so far other than the Mierce models is in the Last Kingdom where the Welsh were kitted out pretty much the same way as the English (complete with anachronistic rectangular shields 🙃) except for their tunics being in the bright Welsh Goch. I suppose you could say that this would thus mean a Welsh kit wouldn't look very different to a Saxon kit, but given WGA have made such a characterful Irish set, they could easily add some more characterful elements to a Welsh set like hooded heads and cloaks for Helwyr scouts, loads of Celtic moustached heads, varying helmets including pot helmets, conical helms and some old heirloom Romano-British ones with moustaches, perhaps even a standard with a metal dragon at the top, or at the very least some Y Ddraig Goch banner transfers?
Yes, I remember reading about Spearmen more often being levied from the Northern Welsh regions and archers being raised from Southern Welsh kingdoms. I've suggested a good quantity of spears (alongside swords) be included as part of my Welsh/Romano-British set idea, so that's covered. As to the reason for it I can't really say, perhaps that was due to influence from the Irish, Northern English or Strathclyde Britons?
Anglesey was conquered though - the Romans massacred the Druids there in AD 61 to try and break the resolve of the Britons, though perhaps ironically the legion sent to do the deed was massacred in return as it marched to assist in quelling Boudicca's Revolt, as a tribe of Britons in either North Wales or North-West England ambushed the Legionaries from either side as they marched through a forest. Having removed most of their armour for marching, the Romans were all slain except for the commanding officer who escaped purely through being mounted. Additionally, any attempt made by the Britons to reclaim it would surely result in the Romans sending another Legion to commit another massacre?
@Caratacus You are right mate, I stand corrected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_conquest_of_Anglesey
Seems my memory of Segontium being the furthest reach of the Empire was off.
Considering the time I spent in Caernarfon and on the Menai Strait I am surprised I was so unaware of the history in the wiki.
Another taste of humble pie for me. Diolch!
The term "Dark Age" for the early medieval period is mostly obsolete in historical and science. The period is covered by the late antiquity (284 to 565) and the early medieval (565 to 1066). Some historicals start the medieval in Britain in those regions which were conquered by germanic people beginning in c. 440 while other start the periode earliest with the left of last roman troops in 410 and the theory of a fast declining roman culture.
Welsh in late antiquity and early medieval should look more like unarmored late Romans or Romano-Britons but with different heads. An own expansion sprue combined with unarmoured late romans or goths should work.
As already said, the use of high numbers of archers in post-roman welsh can be routed back to the recruitment of archers in the Late roman Army and the transitions of military traditions in post-roman states.
In my opionion most of Gripping Beasts plastic Ranges look more like a fantasy range - many designs are dated or poorly researched. Also the box covers from their new briton sets look like over 40 years old illustrations.
Note that women is germanic societies wore clothes which could resemble as "potato sacks".
@Grumpy Gnome based on your suggestion, I bought a victrix chariot sprue... I will see if I can conver Boudicca in to my conquistadors and use some dark age Irish to crew the chariot...
@William Redford Which faction do you intend to use the chariots for? Because I think only the Picts still used Chariots by the time of the Dark Ages/Early Medieval period. I thought the Irish only used light cavalry.
I am not sure about historical accuracy but if you like coolthentic Irish, I would recommend looking at Koyote’s work over on Lead Adventure. His WGA Irish may be of particular interest here.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=100059.330
@Caratacus I actually havent given it much thought. I have a box of Irish and still have 2 full sprues left. I didnt really have a purpose for them when I got them, but the models look great so i had to get them. I was really just looking for something to do with the chariot since i really bought the sprue for the plastic Boudicca.
@Grumpy Gnome Aha, I've noticed Koyote's Irish chariot was made for use in the early Dark Ages/late Antiquity, i.e. Arthurian era, for use in SAGA's Age of Invasions rules. That makes sense given RTW Barbarian Invasion allows the 'Celt' (read: Gaelic Irish/Scottish) faction to use Scotti Chariots. I more had the late Dark Ages/early Medieval Irish in my mind in my previous post.
@William Redford In that case you could easily use your WA Irish in Arthurian era gaming with a chariot-mounted leader, perhaps in SAGA Age of Invasions as per Koyote's model, Warhammer: Ancient Battles: Age of Arthur or any other Arthurian ruleset you want to play. As mentioned above I was thinking of the Irish in later periods than that when I said they preferred to use Light Cavalry.
The last historical known use of Chariots was in 83 AD on the Battle of Mons Grapius. Use of chariots in later times by the picts is highly doubted by historicans. Only the irish used them possible longer but there is no accurate source for this.
@Steffen Seitter Does this include non-european countries? You know like China.
