What does June mean?

  • Now, June is a rather ordinary month to most of you. What happens in June? What does this title mean?

    Now, as the few enlightened of you will possibly know: June is Pride Month. Despite this, the WGA website is remarkably devoid of rainbows of any kind, or even a simple "Happy Pride" hidden in one of the June articles. Now, of course, WGA is not the only company guilty of this, but they are the only guilty party which I have a forum account for, so here goes nothing.

    I'm queer, and I live in a conservative part of america, which means I can only safely be out to a small group of other queer people. Only one of said people wargames.

    Now, while I understand that many companies don't want to "alienate" straight customers and lose revenue, but are queer people not alienated enough? And is losing some revenue really that important?

    Why is June pride month? The Stonewall protests, started in an attempt to secure the rights of queer residents of america to live as who they were, are massively important to the queer community. Now, despite the fact that gay marriage is legal, queer people are still not treated the same as their straight counterparts (in america, among other countries). 

    So, how does celebrating pride help? 

    1. It brings queer people together in celebration of their collective existence.

    2. It draws attention to the injustice queer people still suffer.

    3. It helps result in gay rights in more nations.

    So, was one rainbow really too much? Is a direct reference to homophobia in the rules really too much? I understand that most wargamers are straight and many are homophobic, but are those bigots any different than others? 

    It's not too late though. June still has 20 days in it, after all.

  • I am all for a public Pride display to show support. I was in fact unaware June is Pride Month. 

  • Hi Estoc - nothing against pride month for sure! We support all our LGBTQIA family, friends, customers, and everyone else out there. We just haven't gotten into posting about every month celebration - or most holidays for that matter except on occassion. I didn't want to go down that path because I would be sure to miss something along the way. Also, I've always found the sudden explosion of rainbow logos to be a bit disingenuous and virtue signally if you know what I mean. But yes, we absolutely 1000% support LGBTQIA rights! 

  • An important part of growing up is realising that you aren't entitled to attention and praise.

    Something to think about perhaps.

  • I dont like politics or religion generally when looking at my toy soldiers.

    But... a company showing support does not tick that box for me. I would support a company stating that they support a group of people or cause. @Julian Wensleydale I dont really think its "entitlement" to ask if a company you support is willing to show support for you in return. I do agree with @Hudson Adams though that a lot of companies that do show that support sometimes seem insincere and like they are only doing it to be seen as virtuous or supportive. Its a balancing act to be sure... but... In my opinion I would rather have people think I am insincere if at least one of the people I am showing support for appreciate the effort.

    Edit: I will post a flag to show my support.

  • "I understand that most wargamers are straight and many are homophobic..."

    I'm all for "live and let live," but is it necessary to stick a preemptive thumb in the eye of the people you're asking to accept you?

    Is it not okay for people to accept you and just be cool with you as a person, regardless of your race/religion/sexuality, without them having to shout it from the highest mountain?  So far, the WGA forum has been nothing but a nice, chill place where everyone just seems to get along, none of the nastiness or homophobia you're accusing "many wargamers" of.  Why can't it stay that way?  No one's asking you to fly their flag, why should anyone be required to fly yours?

  • I may be interested in what periods you game/ collect but I am not interested in nor care what you do with your genitals. Keep this forum for the hobby not self interest groups or politics. Fully expecting to be banned for not being pic !

  • I'm all for Pride support. The majority of folks I game with are queer, due to my social circles, and it's pretty important to show support where we can.

  • @Red Bee do you think we need to do more or do you agree with what I said above?

  • @PEter GIlham why would you be banned? You're not expressing intolerance or hate. 

  • I'm a little torn, because I cringe at the rather fake lets stick a flag on our website to "prove our support" when for most its just an attempt to avoid controversy. Its not going to affect me either way in a sense as I'm not abandoning WGA if there is a pride flag (or whatever) and I'm not patting them on the back if there is. It is however usually best for companies to avoid any political stances for obvious reasons.

    You only have to look at the reaction to posting support for the Ukraine, to see that the reaction to getting involved with politics is usually a negative where companies are concerned. Even if the majority is supportive of the stance taken.

    Rules wise could homophobia be added, probably although I'd assume its already covered by "No politics, no racism, no hate speech" rule. At this point I don't believe we have had anybody post anything homophobic and the facebook groups are well moderated.



  • Alright, since it seems not everyone gets this:

    Pride IS NOT Political.

    Pride IS NOT Sexual in Nature.

    Pride IS NOT Something That Affects You.

    Just because some politician made it so  doesn't mean that it's a political thing. I understand that most people's initial exposure to queer people was political in nature, but it's kind of the same as making say, wether or not someone likes ice cream political. It's not a choice, is it? So why should it matter in who you choose to lead your nation? And the Sexualisation of queer people is another issue I don't feel inclined to tackle. As long as you support it, you don't need to put in further input. And if don't support it, don't say anything at all.

    Why did I assume most wargamers would be homophobic? To my knowledge, most wargamers are middle aged or elderly, (although my knowledge is limited) unless they are "just starting" (such as me) and I do not have the best experience with such people being accepting.

    And yes, Queerbaiting is a major issue which I forgot to mention. Many companies (such as disney) claim to support pride but stop once the month ends.

    Note: the following section has been added on after sending the original post.

    I find Hudson Adam's response to be satisfactory in showing his support.

    Pride IS NOT a Fetish.

    Kinda obvious, I thought, but maybe not.

    Pride IS NOT New.

    All of the new stuff is just a bunch of English labels for things we've aready had for a long time.

    Pride IS NOT Wrong.

    See "Pride IS NOT a Fetish".

    If you want to help with efforts, numerous LGBTQ+ Charities exist, although I understand if you can't afford to donate.

  • @Benjamin Hayward But those things have shown up in this hobby.  On WGA's Facebook page we saw posters calling a Jewish gamer "woke" for not wanting to play as the Nazis.  WGA liked that comment.  To be fair, they liked every comment for and against in that thread, I assume because they realized too late that they'd sunk themselves in it.


    Also, you want politics out of gaming?  Stop buying any Eisenkern or Valkir.  Mark Mondragon used his actual Dreamforge store front (not his personal account) to shout treasonous slogans on Jan 6.  You can't get more political than that.  If you mean what you say, you'll stop supporting anything that puts money in Mark Mondragon's pockets.


    the truth is that this hobby is inherently political.  War is politics by other means, and we've all got our perspectives.  Staying silent is not the same thing as staying neutral, but rather showing support for the status quo, which in this hobby is often a bit homophobic and a bit more misogynistic.

  • Speaking of the rules:

    This thread should have been shut down out of the gate.  It would be really nice to have a place to talk about hobby stuff without it getting bogged down in political squabbling bullshit.  

  • @JTam I think its been demonstrated why those rules are in place.

  • Did nobody read the second line? Seriously, I won't say this again.

  • @Estoc you are litterly demanding the posting of a flag and that the rules of the forum be changed to fit your point of view (Despite there already being rules about hate speech), how are you not being political?

    I'm all for be and let be. Freedom of the people requires freedom of the individual from said people.

  • @William Ings No? Where was I demanding anything? I've already clarified that what I've recieved from hudson adams is enough, and honestly this thread does not need to continue. (I'll be keeping it up so people can still see it though)

  • @Estoc your tag for the topic is "Rules Revisions". And imply that there is guilt to be had for not openly supporting you.

    Ask yourself how you would have responded had gotten a negative reply. Food for thought.

    "The unexamined life is not worth living" -Socrates

    Have a happy pride month.


  • @William Ings Well, I would probably stop buying product from WGA if I had gotten a negative response. And if you mean other users, you clearly have very high standards for "Negative". Also, You can't remove tags, which I would have done if I could. and a suggestion is still not a demand.

  • Are we threatening people now?

  • @Hudson Adams On one hand, things are dark in a lot of places as far as LGBTQIA+ rights go. Having more vocal support means a lot right now.


    On the other hand rainbow capitalism is a thing. Companies throwing up the rainbow in June and then supporting politics that directly harm queer folk has become so common that it's made a lot of us cynical when we see corporate pride celebrations.

    Maybe it's due to my background, a late thirty something in a very liberal part of the US, but I appreciate you coming out and speaking support. Would I like a more public statement on behalf of the company, sure, but i understand your reasoning for not posting a statement from the company. Stuff is complicated, always has been and always will be. I


    wouldn't be on this forum if I thought WGA was the kind of company that was against my rights, or the the rights of my friends and family. You guys seem like good folks. Which is really saying something for a company that literally sells little nazi statues 🙂

  • @JTam I meant literally. As in "I do not feel inclined to remind people a third time".

  • Why do you so desperately need WAG and forum members to cheer your life choices? Happy that you are a modeller and/or Wargames but what you do beyond that I don't care!

  • How do I word this without coming across as a complete jerk, because I’m not trying to be one…

    Let me get out in front of this by saying that I don't hate anyone, save a**holes and politicians (but I repeat myself).  I've known too many good and bad people of every race/creed/color/religion/gender/sexuality/whatever to know that those things don't really make a difference at all.  A**holes come in all sizes, shapes, and flavors.  I will admit, though, that while I’ve been cool with the LGBTs for as long as I can remember (got friends and family in that group), there have been some things going on with some of them recently that has soured the milk for me a bit, and has given the community a bit of a bad name (but that’s a discussion for a different forum), and I wish more of them would step forward as voices of reason.  I’m sure they’re out there, but may be afraid to speak up.

    While no one should feel - or be made to feel - ashamed of who they are, I have also become vehemently opposed to any sort of "pride" attached to things like skin color, sexuality, ethnicity, etc.; things which you had no choice in or hand in.  That goes for white pride, black pride, brown pride, gay pride, straight pride - all of it.  The only thing you can be proud of in my book are your accomplishments and how you conduct yourself, full stop.  Your skin color and sexuality are what they are based solely on chance; no one earned theirs.  And, while race/religion/sexuality have been (and continue to be) used to justify awful things done to people, we shouldn’t tar everyone with the same brush.

    But, on that same note, no one should be made to feel as though they have to trumpet their support for anyone, or any cause, and that to not do so is admission of being opposed to that person or cause.  Personally, I do not care about anyone's ethnicity or sexuality. Here's the deal, though: not caring does not mean I'm opposed to you or don't like you.  It just means I don't use those things as a metric by which to judge you, because they simply don't matter to me.  I have way too much other stuff going on in my life - work, bills, car repairs, gas and grocery prices - to worry about skin color or who’s kissing who. 

    While you and I may debate on whether “Pride” has become political or not, I think we can both agree that the compulsion of another person or company to participate in something they are either opposed to, or simply don’t want to, is political to its core.  The idea that someone should be compelled to participate in anything, even something you may think is benign, is wrong, and should be resisted vigorously.  I like Christmas and I celebrate it.  If I ran the world, would it be okay for me to compel people who don’t celebrate Christmas due to their beliefs (or people who simply don’t want to) to just put a small, harmless Christmas tree in their homes in honor of the holiday?  It’s not hurting them to put up a small Christmas tree, so what’s the fuss?  Whether it’s hurting them or not isn’t the issue; the issue is compulsion, which except in limited and extreme circumstances, is wrong.  Just as you should be free to celebrate your sexuality if you desire, people should also be free to not participate in something simply because they don’t want to do it, and they shouldn’t be ostracized for it.

    My problem is not you, or Pride in general, but that your OP sounded a bit like you were calling out WGA for not overtly displaying support for Pride.  When you use language like “WGA is not the only company guilty of this, but they are the only guilty party which I have a forum account for,” that seems to imply WGA has done something wrong; that they are “guilty” as criminals are guilty.  That’s not fair.  Another thing happened in June that WGA also didn’t draw attention to, something that is more in their wheelhouse topically: The June 6, 1944 D-Day Invasion.  Thousands upon thousands of men from every walk of life laid down their lives so that every man, woman, and child on Earth might one day live free from tyranny.  I didn’t post about it, either.  Neither did you, or anyone on this forum as far as I could tell.  Should we all be called out for this by the veterans?  Does this make us all “guilty?”  No.  Guilt assumes that a crime has been committed, and simply not participating in something, or not calling attention to something, shouldn’t be taken as a slight against you or me or anyone.

    As far as I can tell, in the short time this forum’s been around, it’s been a place where pretty cool people come to talk about pretty cool things, and just generally be excellent to each other.  No one’s made any nasty posts about others, no one’s openly attacked anyone, and the beefs seem to be squashed fairly quickly and diplomatically, without massive flame wars.  We've all waxed nerdy about miniatures, complimented and encouraged people on their building and painting, without giving two flying-flips about each others' political leanings, ethnicity, sexuality, or any of that nonsense; this has been a place of real, actual, camaraderie and - dare I say it - diversity!  In my eyes, I can't think of a better way for things to be: folks just enjoying each other's company with no strings attached.

  • @Benjamin Hayward I agree with you (in part)and feel the same. The only thing I disagree with is having a sweeping disregard for politicians. I have been considered a politician by some myself and while others may consider me a jerk I would like them to do so based on my individual actions rather than my involvement in political issues. 

    @Estoc  I oppose discrimination and bigotry point blank. So in that regard I support Pride. However, I feel as Benjamin Hayward has so skillfully articulated. And to be frank, the tone of your posts has not helped the Pride cause. I do not like being judged on my age. Your sweeping statement about elderly gamers is in its own way a form of bigotry. My experiences and opinions on the English speaking international wargaming community is that it is not predominantly homophobic no matter the ages of the those gamers. There is a homophobic element just as there is in most communities but it is not dominant and so far I do not see that community pushing  players out. Quite the opposite. If it is anything it is more misogynistic than homophobic but that has been changing for the better quite quickly compared to other hobby communities I have been a member of (competitive shooting for example) and it is not a predominant element.

    I believe this issue would have been best dealt with by an email to WGA rather than a rather undiplomatic post.

    It is disappointing that LGBTQ+ rights are contentious politics. But it is a topical political issue these days.

    And@JTam  has correctly quoted the forum rules. However, that became difficult to stick to once WGA made a political statement about the war in Ukraine (However, as I support Ukraine as well it was easy for me to overlook it).

    Also, seems to me Disney is doing more than just rainbow capitalism given the risks it is taking in Florida right now. @Estoc  I get that you may be feeling hurt, angry and persecuted right now but I would make the well intentioned suggestion that you becareful about lashing out at allies. 

    I would prefer WGA to completely avoid politics but I grasp that is pretty much impossible. All they can do is minimalize the politics here just as I try to keep it to a minimum on my blog and the Lead Adventure Forum does. I do not want this forum to be like RPG.net, which makes me as a former police officer very unwelcome. 

    As an aside, this thread has brought to my attention that suggestion that Mark Mondragon voiced support for the Jan. 6 Insurrection. If this is true, then products associated with him are not ones I will continue to support. 

  • @Grumpy Gnome I've seen no evidence for the claim about Mark Mondragon, cannot find anything about it anywhere but this post and I remember an earlier post on the Legion facebook group (which was removed). Mark posts very rarely these days and his store front would be a strange place to post political slogans since its largely closed down at this point and has been for a while since the line went OP. 

  • @John Wilson I have been given a lead on the matter. There is a short discussion about it on the WGA news thread over on DakkaDakka for those looking for more information on it. 

  • And now we are worried about Thought Crime.  Awesome.

  • @JTam  Thought crime? What do you mean?

  • @Grumpy Gnome Yeah had a look and it looks like Mark posted stuff on facecbook in an attempt to get a reaction out of facebook, over a friend of his being banned. He clarified his position over on that thread on Dakka Dakka. Make of it what you will.

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