What-plastic-ancients-miniatures-we-need?
How about a line of miniatures set during the Trojan War 12/13th century BC.
The Illiad is a transcendent work.
Who cannot be excited about this era / setting?
The arms and armor are unique. The boar tusk helmets, hoop armor, the figure eight shields all would make for striking miniatures.
(I'm far from an expert on this period. I'm excited to see the more knowledgeable weight in.)
One set could represent the lightly armed skirmishers and bowmen.
Another set could represent rankers.
Yet another set could build heroes.
(Ajax)
(Agamemnon)
Need similar set(s) for the Trojans.
And yet another set for chariots. How else can a champion get to and away from the fight?
The afore mentioned hoop armor with boar tusk helmet:
A figure eight shield:
A supporting rule set could be amazing.
Maybe a little something like 4th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Rank and flank units clash, but heroes can have a massive effect. There's still rank bonuses, flank charge bonuses, morale, etc.
Chariot rules enable heroes to deploy with speed where needed on the battlefield:
Rules for challenges can add interest and keep heroes from murdering your rankers.
Scenarios could range from massed battles outside Troy's gates, to beach landings, to raids on villages, to stealth missions to commit murder in the enemy's camp.
Or maybe something like "Of Gods and Mortals"?
Not necessarily having the gods in the game. But treating the top tier heroes (Diomedes, Hector, Achilles, etc.) as just short of.
(Like a Boss....)
Sidenote: I would play the cr*p out of "Of Gods and Mortals" with WGA Trojan War miniatures. Can't think of more perfect miniatures/setting.
Or (and I prefer this) we can fully embrace the mythology. (Or make add on/optional rules for adding mythology to the "historic" game.)
Gods may briefly appear on the battlefield. (Athena herself once drove a Champions chariot!)
Heroes may receive divine favor and during this period of aristeia would have incredible stats / special rules.
(Venus wounded by Diomedes)
(During campaign play/linked battles. Special rule "Divine Intervention": If a HERO is mortally wounded on D6 roll of 5+ he is rescued by a deity. The Hero is whisked away/hidden by a cloud and will return with all wounds during the next game.)
Other rules can cover mythological creatures like dragons, giant boars, and lions. (Wait, lions are real?)
"Wait," you say. "Isn't that just "Mortal Gods?"
Well kind off. But the Trojan War/Odyssey time just has a rawer more primitive feel. The heroes should be mightier as well. Is not every generation of man more feeble than the last?
The face that launched a dozen kits.
That Thessolonian you are fighting, he's the biggest man I have ever seen. I wouldnt want to fight him...
And that's why no one will remember your name...
@William Redford
That dude was so big when he shouldered his way through friendly troops that I thought they CGI'd him. Nope, he's just short of 7 feet.
Incredible recreation of Diomedes' armor.
Without any doubt, Hector, seconded by Sarpedon.
Why?
Because Hector is the human heart, the mortal man at the heart of the Iliad. He's not a demi-god like Achilles or Aeneas (or Sarpedon, for that matter). He's not involved in divine doings like Helen or Paris. He's not even a proper king, like Priam, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Memnon, etc.
He's a mortal man caught up in the end of era, a principled man who despite knowingf that Paris is in the wrong also knows that his community needs him.
He's a son, a brother, and a father. Just as fallible as any mortal man, the truest hero in the entire text. Achilles is a petulant brat by comparison.
Sarpedon gets an honorable mention because it is he alone who bothers to explain why all of this is happening, when in book 12 he gives an exomplanation on the obligations these heroes have to thier communities. That their privildged lifestyles is the price paid for their willingness to fight and die on the field of battle, and that was thier destiny- to fight and be glorious, or to feed the glory of others doing the same.
@H M
Well argued!
Recreation of Achilles' armor:
That's all work by a great guy named Demetrios, who I have had the pleasure of working with in in the past on an armor comission!
@H M
Very cool.
You make armor? He made armor for you?
He made a helmet for me :)
@H M
That's awesome! Such a helmet would have to have pride of place in any collection.
If it's not too much of an imposition, would love to see pictures.
I will sometime! But as it's a Hellenistic/Etruscan style helmet rather than a Bronze Age Aegean helm it would derail this thread some to post pics of it ;)
@H M post it in general chatter. I am sure many of us would appreciate seeing it.
You get my vote for Trojan War Bronze Age models, they'd certainly fit well alongside the Bronze Age Egyptians already in production and they are a fascinating subject that has not yet been recreated in plastic. It'd also make a nice change from the rafts of admittedly great-looking Iron Age Peleponnesian War/Greece-vs-Rome Greeks that have already been made by companies like Warlord and Victrix.
As for the greatest hero, you've got to admire Hector - he knows he cannot win against Achilles, but goes out to fight him anyway if it means his city can be saved, and his self-sacrifice provides a fitting contrast to the selfishness of Paris that endangers Troy in the first place.
@Caratacus
Great points in the first paragraph.
I think this could be a successful line for WGA. It's basically a completely uncontested battlefield if you will.
Good points on Hector. I'm semi surprised at the number of votes for Achilles. He's certainly the deadliest killer. But where is the heroism in murdering all over the battlefield when you're effectively invincible and god touched? Moreover he's what we call in the service a Blue Falcon.
@Caratacus
You mention Paris and his selfishness.
I recently listened to a Podcast about different versions of Helen as presented in different plays, traditions, etc.
Helen of Troy on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-6bzu4-12f1007b
https://access.historyhit.com/the-ancients/videos/helen-of-troy
The person interviewed had an issue that Helen is blamed for the war, but Paris gets away blame free.
That doesn't jibe with either of the two translations of the Iliad I read. Helen is a victim. Aphrodite orders her to go. Mortals don't defy gods. Paris is mocked and reviled throughout the Iliad in my recollection. Certainly it seems that Homer is trying to convey that Helen is a pawn and Paris contemptuous. At least that's what I took away from his ancient text.
Really enjoyed this podcast on Warfare in the Age of Homer. Knowledgeable hosts attempt to discern how accurately Homer described the warfare of the Trojan War.
https://ancientwarfare.libsyn.com/aw182-warfare-in-the-age-o
"Trojans" (or better Wilusians) could be represented in a range which they belong - Arzawa States.
There are no companies with any ranges for the Anatolian Arzawa States.
@Steffen Seitter
Can you tell us more?
From your posts I can tell you know more about ancient history than I ever will.
@JTam
In Hittite sources, they mentioned a city state named "Wilusa" which most historicans on this topic believe it's the city we know as Troia, Troya, Troja, Troy, Trois, Illios or Ilium.
The translation of a hittite treaty which was found in 1986 gave a better view on western anatolia in the late bronze age. How the area arround Wilusa is described in this document led many historicans to the conviction that Wilusa and Troy could be the same City. Evidence from the Iliad suggests that Illios was originally pronounced "Willios".
Arzwa was a foederation (or a single city state, it's debated) which lay in western anatolia. Hittite soruces also mention a "Assuwa League" of 22 city states which formed against them which could be identical with the Arzawa States because some states are mentioned as members of both. Otherwise Arzawa is also listed as a member of the Assuwa League. Parts of them were conquered or subdued by the hittites. Those western anatolian city states are mostly called Arzawa States.
More of this can be also found on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilusa
For the Part of WGA, they could release seperate ranges for the Mycenean and for the Arzawa. Later could also used for Sea People. The Lukka were possible from the Arzawa States of Lugga, while Warsiya is associated with Lycia (which Homer depicted as the home of Sarpedon).
@Steffen Seitter
Thank You! Much Appreciated! Off to do some further reading.
Really fascinating podcast on chariot warfare. The subject matter expert (SME) has actually driven a chariot on the plains of Troy! All types of chariot warfare is discussed. The chariots fighting outside Troy is most relevant to this thread but there all kinds of interesting information. In particular the SME shares his theory on Chinese chariots that is also relevant to WGA products. He believes the crew fought kneeling.
https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Golden-Age-of-Chariots-Podcast/B0963F6YKK
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-golden-age-of-chariots/id1520403988?i=1000523526689
https://access.historyhit.com/videos/hhp-ta-0093
https://wargamesatlantic.com/blogs/news/get-in-the-drivers-seat-and-choose-our-future-releases-poll
Sick!!!
That is nice...
I agree about Hector, but I just have a soft spot for cunning old Odysseus.
On my desk, and semi-relevant:
@Mark Dewis also Odysseus survived the war. Not many heros did.
I am going to be writing a campaign book for a publisher regarding the Trojan war and related topics. Currently working one for the Ancient Greeks/Persians etc first, which is almost complete.
Lots of scenarios and background material etc. Usable with any game system (and scenarios are not suitable for just one game system, some are skirmish, some massed battle so encourages you to try different games) although as I wrote the War & Conquest ruleset (published by Scarab Miniatures) that does get a mention or ten!
Regarding plastic kits, basic ones for chariots, infantry and skirmish types. Each set should have suitable hero heads. Digital files for variation of heroes or another set with lots of more elaborate kit for the heroes and key fighters, theres enough of them named to make it worthwhile.
Its a very interesting period. One of my favourites.
As for heroes, Hector or Odysseus, its a difficult call. Aeneas of course escapes and founds Rome if you believe the Roman propagada :)
Diomedes wounds a god.
Achilles is interesting, Patrocles is brave although rash.
But I voted Odysseus, he got a second book named after him and that journey captured my imagination as a child and has been to blame ever since :)
@Rob Broom
This is fantastic news. Looking forward to both your books.
I hope you will post on this forum when the the Greek/Persian campaign book is released. It certainly ties in with Wargames Atlantic plastic Persians and their Greek STL release.
@Rob Broom
Will your Trojan War/Conflicts in the vicinity campaign book have any mythological flavor/rules? Not necessarily suggesting it, just curious.
@Mark Dewis @William Ings @Rob Broom
I like Odysseus as much as the next man.
Although I far prefer the Iliad to the Odyssey...that's just me.
But as noted, he did survive the war and made it home. Unlike EVERY SINGLE ONE of his men. Now casualties happen, but I doubt he's going to be an example in the Army Leadership manual any time soon.
He's more of antihero at times. He will and does do ANYTHING it takes to survive.
I started rereading the Iliad and taking little notes on characters, events, skills, etc. To create scenarios (far less important now ;) ) and possibly little rules mods for whatever rule set I settle on.
Currently considering of "Gods and Mortals". This is an easy adaption. Some of the gods and Greek heroes are already in the rules. There's rules in the book to create other gods and heroes by picking abilities for X points. We know which gods fought for/favored the Trojans or the Greeks. My only current issue is there is TOO much gods in the game.
Also thinking of adding some "magic" and myth back into "Warhammer Historical Battles". (Wait, isn't Warhammer Historical Battles basically Warhammer Fantasy with the magic and fantasy taken out of it? Well yes). You see, I don't care if the rules are old school. Warhammer Fantasy Battle 4 Edition or so was an awesome game. Fun. Intuitive. Rewarded maneuver. Could be Hero Hammer...but the easy fix was agreeing to only being 10% heroes or whatever. For gaming the Iliad, Hero Hammer is actually ideal though. A 1000 point Warhammer Historical Battle army isn't much bigger than a lot of current "skirmish" game armies. 500 points is definitely a skirmish sized force.
Anyway, first note:
"Machaon, Thessaly, leads 30 ships. Noted healer. Heals Menelaus' gut wound."
Would be a great character. A doughty if not exceptional fighter. Is a leader. Should have stats to reflect that. Should have a rule similar to the Bolt Action "medic" rule. (Now medic rules are common. And probably shouldn't work like they do - i.e. reviving casualties. At least not on a non sci-fi/fantasy battlefield. Honestly they should provide if anything a small morale bonus. Or only be useful in returning troops to the fight in a campaign. But where is the fun in that? )
@JTam totally agree that WHFB works for mythic/legendary stuff such as this.
Fascinating read:
Sidenote: There should really be some rules for rock throwing. I remember a podcast joking about how difficult it must have been to drive a Chariot about on an area so liberally supplied with man crushing rocks.
The late Mediterranean Bronze Age was very important in human history, a lot of civilizations rise, for some historians the fall of most of them was more devastating than 5th century fall of western roman empire, given how pratically only Aegypt's survived as statal entity. A series of plastic sets could be very useful, the only problem being the cost of the molds and how the market will react. Perhaps a mix of mythological and historical could attract more customers, after all in these stories there was always a mix of story and legends, think about not only the troian war, but also centaurs, amazons and heroes fighting various either human and godly foes. Recently on Netflix there was an animated serie, Blood of Zeus, that was very spectacular.
Have you ever looked into One Page Rules' Age of Fantasy: Regiments? It has a lot of the Oldhammer feel, but there is custom unit calculator on their Patreon, (the math isn't that hard really, but you only need to join the lower teir for access) you could use it to modify the factions with ease. Here is a YouTube review.
I think, with a little work, it could offer more then Warhammer.
@Alessio De Carolis
Reference:
I never thought about it that way before. You're right, it was a cataclysmic time.
@Alessio De Carolis
Reference:
It sounds like Wargames Atlantic will be able to test the waters a little with the "Trojan Chariot" kit.
It would be amazing if they (Wargames Atlantic) would basically "make" a market with a Trojan War boxed game with two sides in it. Big buzz. Big by in. Something like we saw around the release of "Mortal Gods".
Big Box Game Release - "Against the Gates of Troy":
Two foot regiments and two chariots per side. Two printed character miniatures per side. (Hector, Aeneas, Ajax, and Diomedes perhaps). Possibly some terrain. (Walls? Beached ships)? Extra points if there is a Trojan horse cardboard cutout ala the 40K 2nd Edition Ork Kan or the Warhammer 4th Edition Goblin Chariot/Elf Lord on Griffin/Ork catapult.
Or a less ambitious toe in the water smaller box game - "Demi-Gods".
Box includes 4 plastic chariots and possibly some printed heros. Maybe some terrain (possibly cardboard). Game sees 4 chariots dueling like WW1 fighter planes and/or jousting like knights and sometimes dismounting for intense mortal combat.
Kind of a mix of this:
(Imagine stony outcrops, and corners of stone walls gone to ruin, to navigate around instead of the spires)
And this:
(I heard the fantasy version of this game, which I can not remember the name of, was actually pretty good).
Or release both boxes/games one after another and buying them both allows you to collect a bigger more balance force with more terrain.
@JTam Would you be thinking of Gorechosen? I seem to recall it did develop a bit of a following.
A Trojan War boxed game would be great - if WGA would spend more time making new markets like this rather than catering to existing ones that have already been satisfied by other companies then they would be able to make a killing on the business side and earn the undying respect of many more modellers. I thought business was always about finding and exploiting a gap in the market?
@Caratacus
Gorechosen! That sounds right. I remember a lot of people talking about how it was actually a very good individual combat game.
The two box sets could not just nest miniatures but rules. The chariot "Demi-Gods" game could have the rules for Chariot movement and combat and fighting individual challenges that would nest into the larger regiments clash game.
@William Ings
Have been checking out the One Page Rules.
First of all, I think the name is misleading ;)
But it looks interesting. Thank You.
Started to write about Amazons at Troy here....
But decided they needed a separate thread:
https://wargamesatlantic.com/community/xenforum/topic/82218/amazons
Well lost my mind a bit but started a Trojan force this Black Friday. (Still 30% off).
All Lucid Eye Amazons and Sea Peoples (Lukka).
I already had some Lucid Eye Amazons (to include Queen on chariot, and a spear chariot) so when I did up the points for Warhammer Historical Battles it's about 750 easy. I may tweak the list anyway. I think the leadership for the spearman is too low. It's definitely too low to represent Amazons. That will bump up the points. I used another unarmored cavalry with bows entry for the Amazon cavalry. I think I'll bump up the percentage of the army that can be heroes as well. This is gaming the Iliad after all.
Does Warhammer Fantasy Battles not have unit champions? I may have to add that. Need to balance out the threat to units if there's more heroes running around.
I wonder if it would just be easier to work from Warhammer Fantasy 4th Edition? Take "Gulial the Nephilim" above - I could represent him with a hero with a magic weapon that adds strength and some magic armor, OR I could represent him with an Ogre, OR I could place him in the second rank and have him stabbing people from back there Kroxigor style. Or I suppose he could just be the Trojan Ajax.
I always pictured the Trojan force as fairly polygot so the disparate nature of the Amazons and Lukka work for me.
Hope to add more chariots and troops (and an entire Greek force) from future Wargames Atlantic releases.
