The Trojan War / Iliad / Odyssey

The Iliad's Greatest Hero?

  • What-plastic-ancients-miniatures-we-need?

    How about a line of miniatures set during the Trojan War 12/13th century BC.

    The Illiad is a transcendent work.

    Who cannot be excited about this era / setting? 

    The arms and armor are unique.  The boar tusk helmets, hoop armor, the figure eight shields all would make for striking miniatures. 

    (I'm far from an expert on this period.  I'm excited to see the more knowledgeable weight in.)



  • One set could represent the lightly armed skirmishers and bowmen.

    Another set could represent rankers.

    Yet another set could build heroes.

    (Ajax)

    (Agamemnon)

    Need similar set(s) for the Trojans.

    And yet another set for chariots.  How else can a champion get to and away from the fight?

     


  • The afore mentioned hoop armor with boar tusk helmet:

    A figure eight shield:


  • A supporting rule set could be amazing.  

    Maybe a little something like 4th edition Warhammer Fantasy Battles.  Rank and flank units clash, but heroes can have a massive effect.  There's still rank bonuses, flank charge bonuses, morale, etc.

    Chariot rules enable heroes to deploy with speed where needed on the battlefield:

    Rules for challenges can add interest and keep heroes from murdering your rankers.

    Scenarios could range from massed battles outside Troy's gates, to beach landings, to raids on villages, to stealth missions to commit murder in the enemy's camp.


  • Or maybe something like "Of Gods and Mortals"?

    Not necessarily having the gods in the game.  But treating the top tier heroes (Diomedes, Hector, Achilles, etc.) as just short of.

    (Like a Boss....)

    Sidenote:  I would play the cr*p out of "Of Gods and Mortals" with WGA Trojan War miniatures.  Can't think of more perfect miniatures/setting.

     


  • Or (and I prefer this) we can fully embrace the mythology.  (Or make add on/optional rules for adding mythology to the "historic" game.)

    Gods may briefly appear on the battlefield.  (Athena herself once drove a Champions chariot!)  

    Heroes may receive divine favor and during this period of aristeia would have incredible stats / special rules.  

    (Venus wounded by Diomedes)

    (During campaign play/linked battles.  Special rule "Divine Intervention": If a HERO is mortally wounded on D6 roll of 5+ he is rescued by a deity.  The Hero is whisked away/hidden by a cloud and will return with all wounds during the next game.)

    Other rules can cover mythological creatures like dragons, giant boars, and lions.  (Wait, lions are real?)

    "Wait," you say.  "Isn't that just "Mortal Gods?"

    Well kind off.  But the Trojan War/Odyssey time just has a rawer more primitive feel.  The heroes should be mightier as well.  Is not every generation of man more feeble than the last?


  • The face that launched a dozen kits.


  • That Thessolonian you are fighting, he's the biggest man I have ever seen. I wouldnt want to fight him...

     

    And that's why no one will remember your name...


  • @William Redford 

    That dude was so big when he shouldered his way through friendly troops that I thought they CGI'd him.  Nope, he's just short of 7 feet.


  • Incredible recreation of Diomedes' armor.

     


  • Without any doubt, Hector, seconded by Sarpedon.

    Why?

    Because Hector is the human heart, the mortal man at the heart of the Iliad. He's not a demi-god like Achilles or Aeneas (or Sarpedon, for that matter). He's not involved in divine doings like Helen or Paris. He's not even a proper king, like Priam, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Memnon, etc.

    He's a mortal man caught up in the end of era, a principled man who despite knowingf that Paris is in the wrong also knows that his community needs him.

    He's a son, a brother, and a father. Just as fallible as any mortal man, the truest hero in the entire text. Achilles is a petulant brat by comparison.

     

    Sarpedon gets an honorable mention because it is he alone who bothers to explain why all of this is happening, when in book 12 he gives an exomplanation on the obligations these heroes have to thier communities. That their privildged lifestyles is the price paid for their willingness to fight and die on the field of battle, and that was thier destiny- to fight and be glorious, or to feed the glory of others doing the same.


  • @H M 

    Well argued!


  • Recreation of Achilles' armor:


  • The whole site is pretty amazing:

    https://www.hellenicarmors.gr/en/armors/mycenaean/


  • That's all work by a great guy named Demetrios, who I have had the pleasure of working with in in the past on an armor comission!


  • @H M 

    Very cool.

    You make armor?  He made armor for you?


  • He made a helmet for me :)


  • @H M 

    That's awesome!  Such a helmet would have to have pride of place in any collection.  

    If it's not too much of an imposition, would love to see pictures.


  • I will sometime! But as it's a Hellenistic/Etruscan style helmet rather than a Bronze Age Aegean helm it would derail this thread some to post pics of it ;)


  • @H M post it in general chatter. I am sure many of us would appreciate seeing it. 


  • You get my vote for Trojan War Bronze Age models, they'd certainly fit well alongside the Bronze Age Egyptians already in production and they are a fascinating subject that has not yet been recreated in plastic. It'd also make a nice change from the rafts of admittedly great-looking Iron Age Peleponnesian War/Greece-vs-Rome Greeks that have already been made by companies like Warlord and Victrix.

    As for the greatest hero, you've got to admire Hector - he knows he cannot win against Achilles, but goes out to fight him anyway if it means his city can be saved, and his self-sacrifice provides a fitting contrast to the selfishness of Paris that endangers Troy in the first place.


  • @Caratacus  

    Great points in the first paragraph.  

    I think this could be a successful line for WGA.  It's basically a completely uncontested battlefield if you will.

    Good points on Hector.  I'm semi surprised at the number of votes for Achilles.  He's certainly the deadliest killer.  But where is the heroism in murdering all over the battlefield when you're effectively invincible and god touched?   Moreover he's what we call in the service a Blue Falcon.  

     


  • @Caratacus  

    You mention Paris and his selfishness.

    I recently listened to a Podcast about different versions of Helen as presented in different plays, traditions, etc.

    Helen of Troy on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-6bzu4-12f1007b

    https://access.historyhit.com/the-ancients/videos/helen-of-troy

    The person interviewed had an issue that Helen is blamed for the war, but Paris gets away blame free. 

    That doesn't jibe with either of the two translations of the Iliad I read.  Helen is a victim.  Aphrodite orders her to go.  Mortals don't defy gods.  Paris is mocked and reviled throughout the Iliad in my recollection.  Certainly it seems that Homer is trying to convey that Helen is a pawn and Paris contemptuous.  At least that's what I took away from his ancient text.


  • Really enjoyed this podcast on Warfare in the Age of Homer.  Knowledgeable hosts attempt to discern how accurately Homer described the warfare of the Trojan War.

    I'm listening to Ancient Warfare Podcast | AW182 - Warfare in the Age of Homer on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-66z6b-1227bb0d

    https://ancientwarfare.libsyn.com/aw182-warfare-in-the-age-o

     


  • "Trojans" (or better Wilusians) could be represented in a range which they belong - Arzawa States.

    There are no companies with any ranges for the Anatolian Arzawa States.


  • @Steffen Seitter 

    Can you tell us more?

    From your posts I can tell you know more about ancient history than I ever will.


  • @JTam

    In Hittite sources, they mentioned a city state named "Wilusa" which most historicans on this topic believe it's the city we know as Troia, Troya, Troja, Troy, Trois, Illios or Ilium.

    The translation of a hittite treaty which was found in 1986 gave a better view on western anatolia in the late bronze age. How the area arround Wilusa is described in this document led many historicans to the conviction that Wilusa and Troy could be the same City. Evidence from the Iliad suggests that Illios was originally pronounced "Willios".

    Arzwa was a foederation (or a single city state, it's debated) which lay in western anatolia. Hittite soruces also mention a "Assuwa League" of 22 city states which formed against them which could be identical with the Arzawa States because some states are mentioned as members of both. Otherwise Arzawa is also listed as a member of the Assuwa League.  Parts of them were conquered or subdued by the hittites. Those western anatolian city states are mostly called Arzawa States.

    More of this can be also found on Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilusa

    For the Part of WGA, they could release seperate ranges for the Mycenean and for the Arzawa. Later could also used for Sea People. The Lukka were possible from the Arzawa States of Lugga, while Warsiya is associated with Lycia (which Homer depicted as the home of Sarpedon).


  • @Steffen Seitter 

    Thank You!  Much Appreciated!  Off to do some further reading.


  • Really fascinating podcast on chariot warfare.  The subject matter expert (SME) has actually driven a chariot on the plains of Troy!  All types of chariot warfare is discussed.  The chariots fighting outside Troy is most relevant to this thread but there all kinds of interesting information.  In particular the SME shares his theory on Chinese chariots that is also relevant to WGA products.  He believes the crew fought kneeling.  

    I'm listening to The Ancients | The Golden Age of Chariots on Podbean, check it out! https://www.podbean.com/ea/dir-79rej-e9f0bac

    https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Golden-Age-of-Chariots-Podcast/B0963F6YKK

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-golden-age-of-chariots/id1520403988?i=1000523526689

    https://access.historyhit.com/videos/hhp-ta-0093

     

     

     



  • That is nice...


  • I agree about Hector, but I just have a soft spot for cunning old Odysseus.


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